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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) "Wind" (Read 22343 times)
joeb33050
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"Wind"
Jan 1st, 2014 at 6:33am
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"Wind" is whatever factors cause 200 yard groups to be greater than twice 100 yard groups, and includes wind drift and mirage. ("Wind" becomes exponentially more important as range increases; thus this speaks to ranges of ~300 yards or less.)
Calculations of the effect of "Wind" on group size show that with no "Wind", 5/100 (5 shot 100 yard), group size would decrease 4%, 10/100 5%, 5/200 13% and 10/200 16%.  "Wind" is not a great contributor to inaccuracy.

"Goal to Go!" by Warren Page, 1957 Gun Digest

pg 83  "…In the finest accuracy shooting ever done by a large entry, that at Johnstown last Labor Day, in the hundred-yard 10-round matches, 28 of 148 riflemen averaged less than half a minute of angle. But for the fifty-shot series at twice this yardage, only two of 146, Sam Clark and myself, could stay under the half-minute mark. At 200 even the top ten shots averaged almost 30 per cent bigger groups, relatively, than they had at the shorter range, and among the less inspired trigger-squeezers the fall-off was far greater….Reason? Sighting problems, wind and mirage, which are essentially human rather than equipment problems.
     Of this inter-related pair, wind drift is far less a bogeyman to the accuracy bug than target displacement by mirage. I can remember only a few shoots (and they were conducted in minor gales) where the sights were free of mirage waves, yet bullet paths were bent and the groups enlarged by wind alone…. As a source of accuracy error, most of us cranks consider mirage four or five times as wind in normal quantities and velocities."

  
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joeb33050
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Re: "Wind"
Reply #1 - Jan 1st, 2014 at 6:36am
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     Page's article reinforces my faith in the calculations and the following conclusions: 

Some of the effort to measure (wind flags etc.) and compensate for wind drift might be more productively spent on other terms of the accuracy equation. (I cannot emphasize enough that compensation for wind drift is feedback-free; the shooter receives NO information about the efficacy of compensation.)

Some/much of the effort to design bullets with less wind drift = higher ballistic coefficient = longer, heavier, smoother, pointier are not productive. Pope style multi-groove base band flat point bullets? Cast bullet design for shorter range applications is sometimes aimed, with tunnel vision, at beating the wind-and the wind is not much of an adversary.
  
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Cat_Whisperer
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Re: "Wind"
Reply #2 - Jan 1st, 2014 at 9:19am
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joeb33050 wrote on Jan 1st, 2014 at 6:36am:
     Page's article reinforces my faith in the calculations and the following conclusions: 

Some of the effort to measure (wind flags etc.) and compensate for wind drift might be more productively spent on other terms of the accuracy equation. (I cannot emphasize enough that compensation for wind drift is feedback-free; the shooter receives NO information about the efficacy of compensation.)

...


MATCHES are won or lost on one's ability to gauge the wind drift from moment to moment.  NO FEEDBACK?  Gauge the wind, take a spotter shot, shoot the target based on what you SEE, evaluate where the target was hit.  Simple.

Gauge the wind, take a spotter shot, (wind shifts without your observing it) shoot the target and pay the penalty for being UNOBSERVANT of the current conditions.

FEEDBACK is the critical component.

« Last Edit: Jan 1st, 2014 at 1:58pm by MI-shooter »  

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joeb33050
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Re: "Wind"
Reply #3 - Jan 1st, 2014 at 9:42am
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So, me and Warren are wrong? The only way I can devise to measure wind compensation is to shoot the rifle from a fixed position-rail gun-during random reasonable conditions = some wind, not gale. Simultaneously a skilled wind compensator, looking through a telescope or not, watching wind flags, announces his compensation at the time of the shot. "half inch right, quarter inch high"
Then compare bullet location and compensation.
BTW, I have strong evidence that wind compensation skill is NOT connected to group size. 

Cat_Whisperer wrote on Jan 1st, 2014 at 9:19am:
joeb33050 wrote on Jan 1st, 2014 at 6:36am:
     Page's article reinforces my faith in the calculations and the following conclusions: 

Some of the effort to measure (wind flags etc.) and compensate for wind drift might be more productively spent on other terms of the accuracy equation. (I cannot emphasize enough that compensation for wind drift is feedback-free; the shooter receives NO information about the efficacy of compensation.)

...


MATCHES are won or lost on one's ability to gauge the wind drift from moment to moment.  NO FEEDBACK?  Gauge the wind, take a spotter shot, shoot the target based on what you SEE, evaluate where the target was hit.  Simple.

Gauge the wind, take a spotter shot, (wind shifts without your observing it) shoot the target and pay the penalty for being UNOBSERVANT of the current conditions.

FEEDBACK is the critical component.


« Last Edit: Jan 1st, 2014 at 2:01pm by MI-shooter »  
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Re: "Wind"
Reply #4 - Jan 1st, 2014 at 10:14am
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CW, don't you know you should listen to the one that has set all kinds of records and gets bored shooting perfect targets day in and day out.

  
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Cat_Whisperer
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Re: "Wind"
Reply #5 - Jan 1st, 2014 at 10:36am
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Quote:
CW, don't you know you should listen to the one that has set all kinds of records and gets bored shooting perfect targets day in and day out.



The statements he's made are so blatantly out-to-lunch that, yes, I knew I'd be re-stating the obvious.
 
Perhaps I like calling a spade a spade.   

There MIGHT be someone reading this that will come to the conclusion that watching the wind and compensating for it is UNIMPORTANT.

Yes, JoeB, you're wrong.  I'm not going to throw away MY wind-flags just because you think you can manipulate numbers.

  

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40_Rod
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Re: "Wind"
Reply #6 - Jan 1st, 2014 at 10:38am
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I think what confuses Joe is the difference between a computer simulation and real life. A ballistics program assumes that when you plug in a wind velocity that it is constant for the entire 200 yards. The reality is much different. The wind may be blowing at one velocity and direction at the bench, be dead calm at 50 yards and switching wildly between two directions at 100 yards. Over its 200 yard trip the bullet may travel through 4 or 5 different wind conditions. This is the equivalent of making a 5-cushion bank shot on a pool table. The more flags that you have out the more wind information that you can sample. 
  On the other hand you can get too many flags, probes ect out and suffer from information overload. I have seen good shooters hesitate and miss good opportunities while trying to process too much information. Know your limits.
One of the reasons that people shoot under their average on a new range is they haven’t learned where to put their flags to sample conditions of the new range.

40 Rod
  
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Re: "Wind"
Reply #7 - Jan 1st, 2014 at 10:41am
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Let's compare groups fired by some of the best at the Houston Warehouse to those same shooters with the same rifles outside in the wind.

In modern, outdoor,  Benchrest shooting.......those who read the wind WIN!
  

Roy B
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Re: "Wind"
Reply #8 - Jan 1st, 2014 at 11:40am
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I always have five or six wind flags up.

The wind flag that does not react the same as the others must be watched carefully to shoot more accurately.

Wind compensation and monitoring and timing of wind gusts are absolutely essential if you wish to win competitions.

The WindMeister
2008 and 2013 International Schuetzenfest Benchrest Champion
  
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QuestionableMaynard8130
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Re: "Wind"
Reply #9 - Jan 1st, 2014 at 11:55am
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"Wind" is whatever factors cause 200 yard groups to be greater than twice 100 yard groups"     

blatantly disregards angle of dispersion variables cased by individual bullets and real world velocity. changes.  "wind" is not "whatever factors" it is just one (or more considering changes and shifts during the bullet's flight) of the variables. 

You can do anything on paper on a computer screen but on the range ALL factors are at play.
I can respect JoeB's interests and efforts ( even though most of it goes way over my head) even though it usually (to me at least) seems strictly 'theoretical" rather than feet-in-the-grass range-real.
  

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Re: "Wind"
Reply #10 - Jan 1st, 2014 at 2:08pm
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joeb33050 wrote on Jan 1st, 2014 at 6:33am:
"Wind" is whatever factors cause 200 yard groups to be greater than twice 100 yard groups, and includes wind drift and mirage. 
...



I like it.  New definition of 'wind'.  NOW it includes whatever you want it to include.  Including the guy next to you breaking wind!

  

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jeffer1942
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Re: "Wind"
Reply #11 - Jan 1st, 2014 at 2:27pm
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Joe:

You manage to come up with all kinds of theory. How about real world experience?  I have not noticed your name anywhere listed in a competitive match report, nor have you posted your own targets to prove some of your cockamamy ideas.  Put yourself behind a rifle, do some real world testing and then come back here with your results.  Until then, it's all horsefeathers!
  
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Re: "Wind"
Reply #12 - Jan 1st, 2014 at 2:40pm
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Grin Grin Grin
Liked that one, Cat.

Wind, like water in a flowing mountain stream, is a fluid (though of course less dense than water) but if joeb could somehow visualize that the behavior is similiar, he might be able to imagine for a brief moment the twists and turns, meanders, rapids and chutes, eddies, etc that the fluid moves through in its nonlinear course to a point 200 yards downstream.
Of course, you can't input (or probably imagine) all the possible variables into a spread sheet.
Maybe joeb should take a few rides in a small fixed-wing aircraft sometime and pay close attention to the continual adjustments the pilot has to make to correct for changes in the wind that must be made to get from point A to point B. And while he's observing those compensations, imagine that he's in a canoe riding on an invisible mountain stream, and then a bullet on its way to the target.
« Last Edit: Jan 1st, 2014 at 2:45pm by BP »  

There are three kinds of men: The ones that learn by reading, the few who learn by observation, and the rest who have to pee on the electric fence and find out for themselves.
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joeb33050
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Re: "Wind"
Reply #13 - Jan 1st, 2014 at 3:34pm
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     The above is not to suggest that the wind drift calculations performed by the many ballistics programs available are incorrect. These programs, the simpler ones, assume a constant wind velocity-a vector quantity including both speed and direction. Wind velocity may vary over the range, wind flags testify to this. Then wind drift is the product of the sum of these velocities, and it may very well be that that sum is commonly less than is estimated. There's an intersection of probabilities, weather and ballistics here that may explain the lack of connection between group size and "Wind" compensation.
  
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joeb33050
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Re: "Wind"
Reply #14 - Jan 1st, 2014 at 3:37pm
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QuestionableMaynard8130 wrote on Jan 1st, 2014 at 11:55am:
"Wind" is whatever factors cause 200 yard groups to be greater than twice 100 yard groups"     

blatantly disregards angle of dispersion variables cased by individual bullets and real world velocity. changes.  "wind" is not "whatever factors" it is just one (or more considering changes and shifts during the bullet's flight) of the variables. 

You can do anything on paper on a computer screen but on the range ALL factors are at play.
I can respect JoeB's interests and efforts ( even though most of it goes way over my head) even though it usually (to me at least) seems strictly 'theoretical" rather than feet-in-the-grass range-real.

Note the "Wind", as I define it. It ain't wind, it's "Wind" that's defined. I can't figure out how to separate wind drift, mirage effect, velocity variation and some other factors. So, for 100 to 200 yard group size, all the factors are called "Wind".
  
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