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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Floral Foam & The 38-55 (Read 10011 times)
SSShooter
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Floral Foam & The 38-55
Dec 23rd, 2013 at 9:59am
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What is the consensus on using a floral foam wad on top of the powder in a 38-55? Is floral foam harmful to the barrel in any way? Does the barrel need to be wiped between shots when using floral foam? 

My co-shooter (rather than spotter, as I also spot for him) is  developing a load with 17gr of 4227 and a 335gr Brooks bullet with SPG lube in his Hepburn. He is using an ~1/8" floral foam wad pushed lightly down on the powder with the case upright. Behind a breech-seated bullet he is getting sub 1moa groups at 100yd (his current test distance). Wondering if I should be doing the same thing?

Edit: - make that floral foam (doh Wink).
« Last Edit: Dec 23rd, 2013 at 8:52pm by SSShooter »  

Glenn - 2x CPA 44 1/2 w/22LR (Shilen ratchet-rifled & Bartlein 5R rifled), 38-40RH & 38-55WCF (Bartlein 5R rifled) & 40-65WCF (GrnMtn 'X') barrels
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Jerry_H
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Re: FloroFoam & The 38-55
Reply #1 - Dec 23rd, 2013 at 10:46am
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I've never tried it in a 38-55 but it makes a world of difference in my 28-30 using IMR4227 and Rem. 2 1/2 primers. I plan to try it in my 33-47 soon. 

I use the green, dry floral foam and have been advised that it does no harm at all to the barrel.

Give it a try, you may like it.

Jerry_H
  
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Redwing
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Re: FloroFoam & The 38-55
Reply #2 - Dec 23rd, 2013 at 11:58am
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Howdy !!!

I use this foam in my 45-70 RRB and have never had an issue with it !!!  Make your self a little fixture to insure consistency (thickness) of the wafer and push the shell through it for a positive seal...

If you can't out-shoot your Buddy, what do you have to lose ???

Merry Christmas !!!

Ed...

  
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Lefty38-55
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Re: FloroFoam & The 38-55
Reply #3 - Dec 23rd, 2013 at 12:05pm
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Per the guru (to me anyway) on the use of fillers vs. wads (as they are NOT the same!) from Mr. Larry Gibson, from the Cast Boolits website:

"By L. Gibson (Cast Boolits post):  Does the 38-55 "need" a filler? No it doesn't, but unless you want to raise the muzzle before each shot you will have powder position sensitivity, inconsistent ignition and probable vertical stringing. I would definitely use a Dacron filler with 18-grns IMR4227 & 16-grns 2400 under a 250-gr cast bullet. Use just enough Dacron fluffed to fill the air space between the powder and the base of the bullet."

FWIW my Dad shot thousands of 38-55 smokeless loads in his later years, all with a ~3/8" square tuft of Dacron 'pillow stuffing' over his 4227 or 4759 (preferred) charge and never an issue arose. And he knew all about BP and duplex loads, as he had started shooting at the old Walnut Hill Range, we he had once met and shot with Mr. Pope. Towards the later end of his shooting life, it was nothing but smokeless loads for him. It is, what it is (or was) ... but at least he was still shootin'!

That same load put 4 shots into one ragged hole, just over bullet diameter and counting the 5th, all went into a ~1/2" group @ 100-yards last week on my new CPA wearing that new Davis 12X scope I had just picked up. If I wasn't hunting the flintlock only season after Xmas, I'd be printing her @ 200Y Wink .

If BP loads, then I've digressed, sorry Sad . Sadly, I wasn't into BP cartridge shooting then and did not discuss BO loading much with my Father, who's since passed.
  

All of my single shots shoot one tiny ragged hole with cast bullets ... it's just the following shots that tend to open up my groups Wink ...
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QuestionableMaynard8130
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Re: FloroFoam & The 38-55
Reply #4 - Dec 23rd, 2013 at 12:39pm
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I have used floral foam wadding to plug the mouth of cases when breech seating. Simply by using the case mouth to cookie-cutter a plug out of a thin slice by pressing it down on the mouth of the charged case.   the purpose is to keep powder from spilling into the action while inserting the primed and charged case into the action.

I was shooting 45-70 off the bench when I first got started in ASSRA shooting.  I used a thin punched-out cork sheet over-powder wad to keep the charge of smokeless back in the bottom of that big old case. Following Dell's book-advice I made up a seater out of a fine threaded bot with two nuts as an adjustable stop. It seated the cork wad just a tad above the powder charge.  I did this by inserting TWO wads and adjusting the seater/nut depth to put the group of two just lightly against the powder. 
Then I used a bent hat pin to pick the seated pair of wads out of the charged case.  from then on i used the seater as adjusted  but with just ONE cork wad
Scorched wads could be found on the ground in front of the bench after a relay.   
I have never used floral foam as a deep seated over powder wad since the stuff I use is too frangible to seat down into the case.  The cork, if cut very slightly oversize, would flex and spring back just enough accommodate the taper of the case and hold the powder charge in position
« Last Edit: Dec 23rd, 2013 at 12:45pm by QuestionableMaynard8130 »  

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SSShooter
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Re: FloroFoam & The 38-55
Reply #5 - Dec 23rd, 2013 at 4:18pm
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QuestionableMaynard8130 wrote on Dec 23rd, 2013 at 12:39pm:
I have used floral foam wadding to plug the mouth of cases when breech seating. Simply by using the case mouth to cookie-cutter a plug out of a thin slice by pressing it down on the mouth of the charged case.   The purpose is to keep powder from spilling into the action while inserting the primed and charged case into the action.

Hmmm........... thought that keeping the powder from falling out into the action was a nice secondary benefit rather than the primary purpose. Understood that the primary purpose was to get the powder up around the primer for good, complete ignition. With that thinking, have you ever tested the two different wad locations? One down near the base of the case as opposed to one near the mouth?
  

Glenn - 2x CPA 44 1/2 w/22LR (Shilen ratchet-rifled & Bartlein 5R rifled), 38-40RH & 38-55WCF (Bartlein 5R rifled) & 40-65WCF (GrnMtn 'X') barrels
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QuestionableMaynard8130
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Re: Floral Foam & The 38-55
Reply #6 - Dec 23rd, 2013 at 7:49pm
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IF you walk the firing line at EG,  a big proportion of the guys shooting breach-seting will be using the green FF and just doing the cookie cutter thing --sealing the mouth of the case.  I can't say I have ever seen anyone trying to seat it down on the powder---not saying some don't just that I have never noticed it.  I think a lot depends on the cartridge size, the volume of the powder charge and of course the specific type of powder (how position sensitive it is)  I think low density charges of high fast energy powders in high volume cases might call for something to control pre-ignition powder position.  straight or nearly straight wall cases work ok with a disc-wad. I suspect that tapered or bottleneck cases might require more advanced techniques
  

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JLouis
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Re: Floral Foam & The 38-55
Reply #7 - Dec 23rd, 2013 at 8:24pm
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You will need to test for best location, what works for one does not work for all. My 28 Darr does not like it at the mouth of the case or down hard on the powder. It likes it backed off the powder a tad and then you have Jerry H shooting a couple of benches down shooting his 28 with the FF having a half crush on the powder shooting an extraordinarly small group at 200yds.

JLouis
  

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Re: Floral Foam & The 38-55
Reply #8 - Dec 24th, 2013 at 9:10am
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I am one of those who is anti foam. I watched a friend ruin a good bench barrel with foam. He swore that it was the right kind but after about 50 shots the throat was so choked with goo it was hard to load and accuracy was gone. He cleaned it and cleaned it nothing would touch the fouling. He finally took it home and scrubbed it out with cleanser. And finally some fine steel wool. When the throat was purged of the plastic it went back out to the range it never shot right again. I don’t know if he got the wrong kind or if the stock boy put the wrong kind in the bin but that experience was enough to take me off foam. 
  I have always used sheet cork or felt. Following Charlie Dells advice I seat the wad about .100” of the powder and orient the powder to the wad then put the case in the chamber. I have never rung a chamber and in experiments shot to just shy of 2000 FPS. Using modern steel barrels. Cork usually gives me my best accuracy although I have one rifle that prefers felt. 

40 Rod
  
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QuestionableMaynard8130
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Re: Floral Foam & The 38-55
Reply #9 - Dec 24th, 2013 at 9:38am
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there are twotypes of FF that I see in use at EG   one is "wet" and one is "dry"   not sure which is which.

I use the very very fine grain Very frangible type   I think it is the "wet" kind.  I get it at the craft dept at Walmart a couple bucks buys a 3 brick bag of it, enough for a couple seasons. (Not fond of WM but going into the big box craft stores--who also carry it---gives me the creepy hives) It appears to be the most common I see in use by far.
the other, which I think is the "dry" kind is a whole lot more like styro-foam. It has a much larger "grain" and is a lot "crunchier"  some guys may be using it but not as many as are using the finer grain type. 
  

I know of one of our shooters who practically ruined a barrel using plastic overpowder wads.  on an almost brand new Hurst engraved rifle to boot. I'm not sure but I think he was using the kind the BPCR guys were using cut from the "right kind" of milk jugs.  it was the Ldps or Hdps. (as I recall) stuff one is OK and one is bad, and I think with the vision problems he was having he may have cut his wads out of the wrong kind of plastic--whichever it was.   It really crapped up the inside of the bore, ended the match for him.  He stopped making the drive up shortly there after and I don't know if he ever got it cleaned out or not.  Maybe 40-Rod and I are talking about the same incident, maybe not.  
  I know a lot of guys DO use the fine grade FF with no problems. But most, myself included are using it in the mouth of the case not as a deeper seated over powder wad.  
For that matter it may not even be a plastic. I'll have to find a way of checking.
They are now making bio degradable packing peanuts out of an expanded foam made from corn starch.  That product [i ]might[/i] make a good overpowder wad material
  

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Re: Floral Foam & The 38-55
Reply #10 - Dec 24th, 2013 at 10:02am
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Best way to tell what it's made if is touch a match to a small piece. How it burns is dead give a way for plastic. rolls up into a liquid sort of ball.  Natural fiber burns with ashes.

Boats
  
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Re: Floral Foam & The 38-55
Reply #11 - Dec 24th, 2013 at 10:24am
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Amen Boats, break a piece off, stick it on the end of a tooth pick, light it and if it turns to 100% ash you are good to go. 

JLouis
  

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Re: Floral Foam & The 38-55
Reply #12 - Dec 24th, 2013 at 12:58pm
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QuestionableMaynard8130 wrote on Dec 24th, 2013 at 9:38am:
there are twotypes of FF that I see in use at EG   one is "wet" and one is "dry"   not sure which is which.
...


I would love to see the MSDS (now SDS) on both types.  "Floral Foam" to me could be ANYTHING green.


  

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Re: Floral Foam & The 38-55
Reply #13 - Dec 24th, 2013 at 5:56pm
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Wikipedia had some info and the MSDS.  (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links);  

The stuff is known as Oasis floral foam and it is a phenolic foam.  Some are concerned about the constituents but the quantities we use are very small.  It has some barium sulfate in it but I don't know if this is a reaction product (they might use barium peroxide as a reactant) or if barium sulfate is just a filler.  It is probably fine as bug dust so it won't cause any harm.

I've used the stuff for a few years with good luck.  I leave the wad at the case mouth but some seat the foam to the powder.  I've only used this with smokeless.  I use Walters Wads with black powder.

I cut the foam about 1/8th inch thick or a bit less.  I need to make a jig to get more even thickness.   

Dave
  
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Re: Floral Foam & The 38-55
Reply #14 - Dec 24th, 2013 at 6:37pm
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Thing about wads of any kind is another set of variables.  Throw charges at the range use a long case like 38/55 load carefully no spills & most important consistent mount no need for wads.

Consistent mount is probably the most important thing in shooting. Don't use a wad as a crutch is my take.

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