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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Ballard Marlin #3 or Winchester Winder Musket (Read 8885 times)
joe94132
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Ballard Marlin #3 or Winchester Winder Musket
Dec 20th, 2013 at 10:30am
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Hello All,

I'm a newbie when it comes to collecting old rifles so I want to thank you all in advance for any advice you can offer me. I look forward to picking your brains in the days to come.

I have an opportunity to purchase two rifles. I can't afford both so I was hoping this forum would steer me in the right direction. 

Rifle #1 is a Winchester first model HiWall Winder Musket in .22LR. The rifle is in very good to excellent condition as is the bore. The rear sight is Krag style and the steel rod cleaning brush is still intact. Asking price is $2,400.

Rifle #2 is a Ballard Marlin Gallery #3 in .22LR. This rifle is also in very good to excellent condition and it includes an original rear peep sight. My concern is that the octagon barrel has been replaced. It is stamped "Remington" so that would make the rifle unoriginal. Asking price is $1,600.

I wanted to know what is the better choice and value from a collectors perspective.

Thanks again for your help.
  
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jeffer1942
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Re: Ballard Marlin #3 or Winchester Winder Musket
Reply #1 - Dec 20th, 2013 at 11:30am
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Actually, the Ballard would be a better value.  Remington barrels were highly thought of back in the day and while detracting somewhat from a collector standpoint, I would rather have the #3.  The original rear sight is also a plus.

The Winder Musket is overpriced. Have seen them from $1000 to $1600 rather regularly.

Good luck whichever you decide to buy.

Jeff
  
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.22Hepburn
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Re: Ballard Marlin #3 or Winchester Winder Musket
Reply #2 - Dec 20th, 2013 at 11:54am
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I'd go with the Ballard, tho if it was a few hundred $ lower I'd like it more. As mentioned above, the Winchester is noticeably over-priced.
  
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joe94132
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Re: Ballard Marlin #3 or Winchester Winder Musket
Reply #3 - Dec 20th, 2013 at 11:58am
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Thanks for the replies. Do you guys feel the Winchester is overpriced considering it is a first model with double barrel bands. It seems as if the first models are harder to come by these days?
  
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Lefty38-55
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Re: Ballard Marlin #3 or Winchester Winder Musket
Reply #4 - Dec 20th, 2013 at 12:49pm
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The Winder Musket is overpriced. Have seen them from $1000 to $1600 rather regularly.

Hopefully I can say this here, but belonging to the Win Collectors forum and here, I can say this if all Win parts and the collector value isn't damaged (extra sight base holes, etc.) then Bert H on the Win Collectors forums would give you a better estimation of value. He is a noted authority on the Winders, as I have sent him pictures of my take-down model.

But for non-Win values, like Pope or Rem barrels on that Ballard, then items of 'collector' value to single shot enthusiasts are better advised here. At least by my experience so far. FYI, I came here (and joined ASSRA) from the Win Collectors.
  
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Redsetter
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Re: Ballard Marlin #3 or Winchester Winder Musket
Reply #5 - Dec 20th, 2013 at 3:05pm
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jeffer1942 wrote on Dec 20th, 2013 at 11:30am:
...while detracting somewhat from a collector standpoint...Jeff


From the "collector standpoint"?  The "collector standpoint" is the only thing making these guns worth more than modern junk.  Unless there's documentation to prove the Rem brl. was put there by a famous gunsmith or shooter, this #3 should be considered no better than a shooter worth no more than the sum of its individual parts--which would be a long way from $1600.

Within the last few months on Gunbroker, there was an exceptionally clean, all-original, #3 priced at $1700.  Maybe it finally sold for that price, but it remained unsold for over a month; does that tell you something?
  
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Re: Ballard Marlin #3 or Winchester Winder Musket
Reply #6 - Dec 20th, 2013 at 6:36pm
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They both seem over priced to me in these times. One being a long way. Think in terms of what can I get for it if I have to sell it. The Ballard is closer but still way up there...Don
  
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joe94132
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Re: Ballard Marlin #3 or Winchester Winder Musket
Reply #7 - Dec 21st, 2013 at 2:29pm
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Thanks again for the replies. Today, I further inspected this Ballard #3 and discovered that it was manufactured in 1888. I also took the fore stock off and found that the serial numbers on the Remington barrel match the numbers on the receiver and elsewhere. Would a replacement barrel have matching numbers?
  
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Redsetter
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Re: Ballard Marlin #3 or Winchester Winder Musket
Reply #8 - Dec 21st, 2013 at 3:43pm
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Would a replacement barrel have matching numbers?


I can make any replacement part "matching" with steel number stamps.

If it's a #3 with a factory-installed Rem barrel, call John Dutcher at once--you've found the rarest Ballard ever made.
  
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Re: Ballard Marlin #3 or Winchester Winder Musket
Reply #9 - Dec 21st, 2013 at 3:58pm
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I don't know what Remington's policy was back in the day but I have examined a Ballard Pacific in 38-55 that had a new barrel installed by Stevens.  It was made exactly the same as the Ballard barrel and serial numbered to the action but had Stevens marking.  It even retained the factory forend, thimbles and wiping rod. 
The old man who owned it said it had been sent to Stevens by his father about 1918 and that 2 other club members (New Braunfels Schuetzen Verein)had similar work done by Stevens.
  
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joe94132
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Re: Ballard Marlin #3 or Winchester Winder Musket
Reply #10 - Dec 21st, 2013 at 4:04pm
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The owner of this rifle is believes it was constructed by Harry Pope using the Remington barrel. Why he thinks that I have no idea. If Hope installed the barrel wouldn't it have a distinct H. M. Pope stamp or similar markings? If so, where would these markings be located? I'm going to have a look tomorrow and put this to rest once and for all. Thanks again for all the comments!
  
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Redsetter
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Re: Ballard Marlin #3 or Winchester Winder Musket
Reply #11 - Dec 21st, 2013 at 4:16pm
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830singleshot wrote on Dec 21st, 2013 at 3:58pm:
I don't know what Remington's policy was back in the day but I have examined a Ballard Pacific in 38-55 that had a new barrel installed by Stevens.  It was made exactly the same as the Ballard barrel and serial numbered to the action but had Stevens marking.  It even retained the factory forend, thimbles and wiping rod. 
The old man who owned it said it had been sent to Stevens by his father about 1918 and that 2 other club members (New Braunfels Schuetzen Verein)had similar work done by Stevens.


It's WELL known that Stevens made a specialty of this kind of work; have you ever heard of Marlin or Rem doing the same?
  
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Redsetter
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Re: Ballard Marlin #3 or Winchester Winder Musket
Reply #12 - Dec 21st, 2013 at 4:31pm
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The owner of this rifle is believes it was constructed by Harry Pope using the Remington barrel. Why he thinks that I have no idea. If Hope installed the barrel wouldn't it have a distinct H. M. Pope stamp or similar markings? If so, where would these markings be located? I'm going to have a look tomorrow and put this to rest once and for all. Thanks again for all the comments!


Though highly improbable, I suppose that can't be ruled out as utterly impossible, as even so cantankerous a character as Pope might have done special favors for special friends; but as everyone knows, it's certainly nothing he made a regular practice of doing.   

But before I believe that, I'll believe that the seller has won for himself this year's Gold Medal from the International Liar's Club.  This year, did I say?  Possibly he has retired the prize.
  
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joe94132
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Re: Ballard Marlin #3 or Winchester Winder Musket
Reply #13 - Dec 21st, 2013 at 5:00pm
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What's this gun worth with the replacement Remington barrel? I was thinking $1,200 would be a fair price.
  
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Redsetter
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Re: Ballard Marlin #3 or Winchester Winder Musket
Reply #14 - Dec 21st, 2013 at 5:46pm
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Not one cent over $1000, in my opinion--and that would be NO bargain.

Seems to me you REALLY want this gun, original or not, but try to remind yourself that #3s are the most commonly encountered Ballards.  What I'd do with it, IF the gun is otherwise very clean, is ditch the Rem brl. & have a replica Ballard brl. made.  Possible to get away with this (assuming a skilled barrel maker), because except for caliber, Ballards barrels are unmarked.
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Ballard Marlin #3 or Winchester Winder Musket
Reply #15 - Dec 22nd, 2013 at 11:48am
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My opinion (for what it's worth) is both guns are overpriced. I'd still choose the Ballard, as it's less overpriced than the Win., but still way more than it should be. 
If there were any provenance to support the stories the seller has offered, then it would be a fair price, even at the present $1600, but without provenance it's closer to what Redsetter has estimated; around $1,000. I've got a number of #3 Ballards, and the only one I gave over $1000 for is my #3F Fine Gallery, which is pistol grip, checkered, Swiss butt; and it was still under the asking price of this Ballard.
This was a $900 Ballard #3 with lots of case, and 98% blue, plus 90%+ finish on the wood.
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Re: Ballard Marlin #3 or Winchester Winder Musket
Reply #16 - Dec 22nd, 2013 at 2:01pm
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Joe94132,
I suggestion to you would be to pass on both of these rifles. The seller can Obviously see that you are excited about buying, and sounds like he will tell you anything you want to hear just to seal the deal.Buyer Beware. Do your homework before spending hard earned money, and than do some more homework just to be certain.  With all due respect, an uneducated buyer is the easiest to rip off.

Jesse
  
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joe94132
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Re: Ballard Marlin #3 or Winchester Winder Musket
Reply #17 - Dec 22nd, 2013 at 2:10pm
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Thanks again for the advice. I passed on both rifles.
  
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Re: Ballard Marlin #3 or Winchester Winder Musket
Reply #18 - Dec 24th, 2013 at 6:30am
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Do agree that those are some 'extreme' asking prices. By about 100%.

Put a WTB listing in the classifieds here. Likely come up with either a High/Low Wall, Ballard or Stevens for a fair value. Also, keep an eye on Gunbroker. All three show up there all the time. And all for under $1000. The Stevens 414 can be an especially good value if you find a clean one.
  
Glenn - 2x CPA 44 1/2 w/22LR (Shilen ratchet-rifled & Bartlein 5R rifled), 38-40RH & 38-55WCF (Bartlein 5R rifled) & 40-65WCF (GrnMtn 'X') barrels
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