Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 Send TopicPrint
Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) C,9371 - 1863 Sharps Carbine -Conversion to 50-70 (Read 11508 times)
drm2m
Ex Member


C,9371 - 1863 Sharps Carbine -Conversion to 50-70
Dec 14th, 2013 at 1:35am
Print Post  
I tripped over this Forum recently with regards to Dr Richard Lebowski and his ownership of the Sharps records.
I spoke to Richard today and he said that he did not have records for these carbines....most were purchased by the Gov't 1863-64.
I was prepared to let it drop... but somehow my registration to this Forum was accepted.

This is my carbine.

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

David
« Last Edit: Dec 14th, 2013 at 1:48am by »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
harry_eales
Ex Member


Re: C,9371 - 1863 Sharps Carbine -Conversion to 50-70
Reply #1 - Dec 14th, 2013 at 2:03am
Print Post  
Welcome to The Forum DRM2M,
That is very nice clean looking Sharps, amazing, no one has boogered up the screw heads in a Century and a half. The stamping shown on the stock is almost certainly the initials of the Government Inspector who examined the rifle before acceptance into service. You should be able to trace his name and the period he worked as an inspector.

If you look at Sharps Firearms by Frank Sellers you will find out more info about your rifle and how many original  paper cartridge carbines were converted to 50/70. This work was done by the Sharps Factory and the carbine was almost certainly refinished at that time. A very nice example to own.

Harry
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
waterman
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 2846
Location: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Joined: Jun 9th, 2004
Re: C,9371 - 1863 Sharps Carbine -Conversion to 50-70
Reply #2 - Dec 14th, 2013 at 3:50am
Print Post  
Yes, welcome David.  That is an absolutely marvelous old Sharps.  There are not many things still on my bucket list, but one like that is in first place.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ron
Oldtimer
*****
Offline



Posts: 576
Location: Augusta Maine
Joined: Nov 15th, 2009
Re: C,9371 - 1863 Sharps Carbine -Conversion to 50-70
Reply #3 - Dec 14th, 2013 at 8:40am
Print Post  
drm2m

A very very nice Carbine. I have seen many at auction that were nice, but yours is really nice.

ron
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
George Babits
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 1106
Joined: Sep 27th, 2012
Re: C,9371 - 1863 Sharps Carbine -Conversion to 50-70
Reply #4 - Dec 14th, 2013 at 10:29am
Print Post  
Great looking Sharps carbine.  I have sn: C.95xx which is not too far removed from yours.  While there may not be factory records, there was a series of books published in the 1990's (Serial Numbers of US Martial Arms," by Springfield Research Service), which lists the serial numbers and units the numbers were issued to.  Unfortunately the books are out of print and very expensive.   I don't have any of the books.

My serial number falls into the range which was issued to the 1st Maryland Volunteer Cavalry as a precussion carbine.  It later turns up again in the range of conversion carbines issued to the 1st California Cavalry,  That later issue places it in southern Oregon/northern California during the Modoc War.

Your carbine is just below that later range (c.95444-c.95602).  If you can find someone with any of the above mentioned books, you may be able to learn some of the history of your carbine.  Judging from the condition it is in, I doubt it saw much combat.

George
Salmon, Idaho
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Tom_Trevor assra life no.71
Oldtimer
*****
Offline


Tom Trevor

Posts: 695
Location: Granada Hills Ca.
Joined: Jun 16th, 2004
Re: C,9371 - 1863 Sharps Carbine -Conversion to 50-70
Reply #5 - Dec 14th, 2013 at 12:20pm
Print Post  
Very nice carbine. SRS does not record that number the closest is C9338 issued as a percussion carbine in 1861 to CO.C 5th ILL. volunteer cav. Note the C is roman numeral for 100 so your serial number is 109338. That is the closest number for refrence only and does not indicate anything as to use for your carbine which I would guess saw very little service on horseback. Hope this helps.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
jhm
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 1559
Location: georgia
Joined: Sep 4th, 2011
Re: C,9371 - 1863 Sharps Carbine -Conversion to 50-70
Reply #6 - Dec 14th, 2013 at 1:18pm
Print Post  
I am drooling as I view the pictures!  Beautiful example of an original  unmolested Sharps. I hope to have one myself someday(bucket list item). Thanks for sharing the pics.

JHolland
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
John in PA
Oldtimer
*****
Offline



Posts: 580
Location: Hollidaysburg, PA
Joined: Nov 3rd, 2009
Re: C,9371 - 1863 Sharps Carbine -Conversion to 50-70
Reply #7 - Dec 14th, 2013 at 3:17pm
Print Post  
The primary variations in these are as follows:  Rimfire vs centerfire, 

lined barrel (3-groove rifling) vs unlined (6-groove original Sharps rifling--earliest, and I believe all the rimfires and some early centerfires)

some very early ones, including the rimfires, have a firing pin return spring.  Most just have a cam lobe on the front of the firing pin that engages a corresponding cutout in the receiver and retracts the pin as the block is lowered.   

Common to find buttplates with cut-out for patchbox on non-patchbox guns.  Apparently there were cutout buttplates in abundance and it was deemed expedient to use them up as they have no effect on function.
Otherwise markings, fixtures, and sights are identical to Model 1859 and 1863 Sharps, but usually somewhat lighter impressions on the markings as these guns were all refinished at the arsenal when converted.

they're fun to shoot, but beware large firing pin holes and lack of provision for gas diversion away from your face should a primer pierce.  Wear shooting glasses!!
  

John Wells
Hollidaysburg, PA
Peabody and Peabody-Martini's Wanted!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
drm2m
Ex Member


Re: C,9371 - 1863 Sharps Carbine -Conversion to 50-70
Reply #8 - Dec 14th, 2013 at 5:25pm
Print Post  
Thanks for all the positive comments.
I got this carbine in Canada in 1990.
There are traces of the CW inspectors acceptance stamps above and below the saddle ring bar.
The DFC-David F. Clark inspection stamp on the left stock flat which was applied following the conversion is very clear.
The barrel markings are less pronounced.
I don't think that this carbine saw much action.... as many have suggested.

David

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Old-Win
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 1692
Location: Minnesota
Joined: Nov 24th, 2005
Re: C,9371 - 1863 Sharps Carbine -Conversion to 50-70
Reply #9 - Dec 15th, 2013 at 12:21pm
Print Post  
If you like to research acceptance stamps, here are some pictures of them from a Sharps stock of mine.
They might help you with what is under your sling bar.  Bob
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Old-Win
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 1692
Location: Minnesota
Joined: Nov 24th, 2005
Re: C,9371 - 1863 Sharps Carbine -Conversion to 50-70
Reply #10 - Dec 15th, 2013 at 12:29pm
Print Post  
The top cartouche in the first picture, I believe is AWM. The lower one is EF and the one on the right I believe is TWP.  I'm not good at reading some of the fancy scroll where the letters overlap one another.  The picure of the top of the stock has a faint CWI right in front of the buttplate with the letter W stamp in the metal.  The last picture show an M in the patchbox.  I don't know if there is a list of any of the factory workers that these could be connected to.  Bob
« Last Edit: Dec 15th, 2013 at 6:56pm by Old-Win »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
drm2m
Ex Member


Re: C,9371 - 1863 Sharps Carbine -Conversion to 50-70
Reply #11 - Dec 15th, 2013 at 6:08pm
Print Post  
Old-Win

Superb markings----it does not get better than that!
Thanks for posting those photos.

The cartouches around the sling bar on my carbine are too obscure to try and identify.

The only CW pieces that I have with clear cartouches are shown below.
'58 Remington Army revolver---OWA--for Orville W. Ainsworth.

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

Inspectors acceptance stamp on an 1858 Starr DA Army revolver----I have no idea who the inspector was.

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)


(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)


David
« Last Edit: Dec 15th, 2013 at 7:17pm by »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Old-Win
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 1692
Location: Minnesota
Joined: Nov 24th, 2005
Re: C,9371 - 1863 Sharps Carbine -Conversion to 50-70
Reply #12 - Dec 15th, 2013 at 6:59pm
Print Post  
The lettering and border of the Sharps stamps are so similar to the ones on your Remington and Starr that there may have been a "go to guy" for all your stamp needs back in the 1860's-70's.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
drm2m
Ex Member


Re: C,9371 - 1863 Sharps Carbine -Conversion to 50-70
Reply #13 - Dec 15th, 2013 at 8:01pm
Print Post  
Old-Win.

I don't know if anyone wrote a book with photos of inspectors cartouches.

I was able to find photos of Orville W. Ainsworth's cartouche on other guns as he was a well known and active inspector during that period.

Inspector’s marking “O.W.A.”   (Orville W. Ainsworth) 1831-1870.
Smith & Wesson American 1869, Remington’s, Colt Percussion and conversion revolvers 1831-70.

It was Ainsworth that inspected the Colts used by Col. G.A. Custer's 7th Cavalry at the Little Bighorn.

Orville W. Ainsworth served as an Ordnance Sub-inspector at the Colt plant from mid October, 1873 through November 7, 1874. 
It was Ainsworth who actually inspected the guns in the serial range of 200-14,343. This was the block of guns which were used during the height of the Indian wars, including Custer’s famous Last Stand. (June 25 and June 26, 1876)


The cartouche used by Erskine S.Allin.

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

His cartouche is shown on the stock of this Model 1860 Spencer carbine together with two other CW inspectors stamps.

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

My understanding is post CW conversion Sharps carbines had a DFC-David F. Clark cartouche on the stock.

Post CW Spencer conversions had an E.S.A -Erskine S. Allin cartouche on the stock.

David
« Last Edit: Dec 15th, 2013 at 10:54pm by »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
coljimmy
Senior Forum Member
****
Offline



Posts: 283
Joined: Nov 10th, 2012
Re: C,9371 - 1863 Sharps Carbine -Conversion to 50-70
Reply #14 - Dec 20th, 2013 at 12:50am
Print Post  
Haveing two 50-70 conversions and examining several others, lots of them have no inspectors cartouche visible either due to refinishing over a light stamp or just not one at all.  Of a historical note, they began to show up with Texas based cavalry troops in mid 1871 and when the army got through with their evaluation and went with the 45-70, or temporarily back to the 1865 50 cal Spencers, they were surplused to the state governments (and for the army's buffalo extermination program, to the hunters.  In 1874 when the carpentbagger rule was voted out and Texas Governor Edmond Davis was forceably removed from office, the Texas Rangers were reorganized and they were issued the 50-70 carbines which they had to buy with their first paychecks which were basically worthless as the state didn't have any money to cash them anyway (carpetbaggers again).  They were replaced by '73 Winchesters a few years later as the Indian problem improved and outlaws were a closer range problem.  I enjoy reloading and shooting mine, also an 1870 trapdoor in 50-70.
James Hays
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1
Send TopicPrint