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GlennM
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Loaded ammo life expectancy?
Nov 22nd, 2013 at 11:36pm
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Recently "found" in my ammo supply a box containing 100 45/70 cartridges that I loaded somewhere between 2003-2005. Winchester brass, Swiss powder, LDPE wad, LubeGuard formula lube.

Cases had a dark-copper colored ring around the brass at approximately the same level as the wad.  I did shoot a few pieces which went "boom" just fine and did well on the target, but noticed a very thin bright line right in the middle of the dark ring.

I've disassembled the balance and thrown away the brass, not trusting it. As I'm now in the middle of a "hoarding run" of ammunition for several BPCR rifles find myself worrying about shelf life of loaded ammo.

Any experience as to how long one can expect loaded BPCR cartridges to last without degradation?

Glenn
  
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CanoeRoller
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Re: Loaded ammo life expectancy?
Reply #1 - Nov 22nd, 2013 at 11:54pm
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I recently found about 100 rounds of my BP loads in 45-70 and 40-65.  I believe they were at least 17 years old.  They had been stored in a gun safe in a Montana garage, where temperature swings were high between summer and winter.

I shot them at targets and found that my group size was was quite a bit larger than what I used to shoot with the same loads.  I suspect the lube had gone a bit iffy.   

The 40's were less accurate than the 45's.  The 40 cal shot about an 11 inch group at 200 yards and the 45's were just over 8 inches.   

When fresh, both these loads would shoot less than a 5 inch groups at that distance.

  
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GlennM
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Re: Loaded ammo life expectancy?
Reply #2 - Nov 23rd, 2013 at 12:27am
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Thanks... forgot to mention this ammo kept in house closet with no temperature/humidity fluctuations to speak of. Didn't shoot target with them but able to hit a 12" gong at center mass every shot... about 10 fired before noticing bright line in dark ring.....
  
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oneatatime
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Re: Loaded ammo life expectancy?
Reply #3 - Nov 23rd, 2013 at 1:30am
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In my younger days I was shooting German surplus BP 11mm ammo loaded in 1888. At 75 years old it was still shooting fine. I reloaded the brass many times and think I still have it somewhere.
  
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Fred Boulton
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Re: Loaded ammo life expectancy?
Reply #4 - Nov 23rd, 2013 at 4:36am
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In the 1980s, I was shooting 303 ammo which had somehow survived two world wars without being fired. It was head stamped 1909 and was very accurate at 300yds.
Fred
  
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Chickenthief
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Re: Loaded ammo life expectancy?
Reply #5 - Nov 23rd, 2013 at 6:24am
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Last sunday i shot some 8x58RD that was arsenal loaded in 1931. No hang fires, no duds but some scrubbing at the end due to corrosive primers.
When i was in the army in '85 they said shelflife of rifle ammo was 50yrs.
  
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rkaires
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Re: Loaded ammo life expectancy?
Reply #6 - Nov 23rd, 2013 at 6:34am
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I would think the issue with ammo loaded with cast bullets is the lube may degrade with time. I shot some 40-65's I loaded with black over 12yrs ago without issue.

  

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CanoeRoller
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Re: Loaded ammo life expectancy?
Reply #7 - Nov 23rd, 2013 at 9:38am
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From my experience, BP will not go bad if stored well, and will still burn if store poorly.  As a child I lived near a military base that had been abandoned in 1893.  I hung out there all the time, and once in a while would find a live round.  When pulled apart, a match would set off the BP from the 45-70's.  So nearly 100 years in the ground was not enough to ruin the powder
  
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GlennM
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Re: Loaded ammo life expectancy?
Reply #8 - Nov 23rd, 2013 at 12:35pm
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rkaires wrote on Nov 23rd, 2013 at 6:34am:

I would think the issue with ammo loaded with cast bullets is the lube may degrade with time. I shot some 40-65's I loaded with black over 12yrs ago without issue.



It's my belief now that somehow my lube has caused the staining or corrosion of the brass from inside to out.  I've heard stories of old Civil War ammunition found that the black powder charges were still good in.

Now wondering what element of the lube would cause the corrosive effect to the brass. Lube consists of beeswax, LubeGard, anhydrous lanolin, and peanut oil.  Have been using this or minimally revised versions for well over a decade.  Perhaps the LubeGard needs be replaced with something else for better longevity.....
  
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Paul_F.
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Re: Loaded ammo life expectancy?
Reply #9 - Nov 23rd, 2013 at 2:42pm
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My first reaction; 
I'd look at the Peanut Oil container and see if one of the ingredients is Salt. Getting harder to find any food items that the makers don't pour a bunch of salt into "for flavor".
Don't know what LubeGuard is, so I couldn't say if that might be it.
Lanolin and Beeswax should be good to go unless contaminated with something that ought not be there.
  
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GlennM
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Re: Loaded ammo life expectancy?
Reply #10 - Nov 23rd, 2013 at 7:24pm
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Quote:
My first reaction; 
I'd look at the Peanut Oil container and see if one of the ingredients is Salt. Getting harder to find any food items that the makers don't pour a bunch of salt into "for flavor".
Don't know what LubeGuard is, so I couldn't say if that might be it.
Lanolin and Beeswax should be good to go unless contaminated with something that ought not be there.


Thanks for the responses!

I checked the peanut oil used (LouAna branded) and see it lists 0% sodium and only ingredient listed is "peanut oil" with no notatations as to other ingredients.

LubeGard is "Valve & Assembly Lubricant" composed of "LXE liquid wax esters and derivatives."  Supposedly similar in nature to spermaceti. Has worked very well in the Texas heat, at least when used shortly after making, but now thinking this is the element that needs be substituted for longer life.  But then again... it also is bright red, making the lube a very pretty pink.

Had thought I had come up with the magical lube formula after a long bout of testing years ago... perhaps time to go back to experimentations.
  
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.22-5-40
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Re: Loaded ammo life expectancy?
Reply #11 - Nov 23rd, 2013 at 7:32pm
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This brass corrosion from lube has been brought up before..I have experienced it in my loads..sometimes as soon as 1 year.  My lube is pure beeswax, synthetic spermaceti wax (Charlie Dell), and castor oil.  I think it may be the anh. lanolin absorbing moisture from the air?  These were all smokeless loads.
  
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harry_eales
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Re: Loaded ammo life expectancy?
Reply #12 - Nov 28th, 2013 at 10:42am
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Some 50 or more years ago a friend of mine in my gun club bought a 56/56 Spencer Rifle and 200 rounds of copper cased ammo for it. Not knowing the collectors value of such ammo we repaired to the range and started to shoot. Approximately 170 rounds fired first time, some more fired on the second or third attempt and perhaps 16 or so failed to fire at all.

This goes to show that 100 year old ammo can still be very viable as long as it is stored correctly. Some years later I successfully fired some early .577 coiled brass Snider rounds and also some 577/450 Martini Henry rounds both charged with black powder and still in original arsenal wrappings. On the other hand I have had failures to fire with military ammunition that was less than 50 years old.

Storing BP loaded ammo in metal military ammo cases with sealed lids and perhaps some silica gell crystals could make it last a long time.

Harry
  
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QuestionableMaynard8130
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Re: Loaded ammo life expectancy?
Reply #13 - Nov 28th, 2013 at 3:30pm
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Most oils/fats will oxidize given enough time. 
Finely refined Sperm oil is a rare exception.  It was highly prized because it was able to hold it's lubricating qualities over very long periods and maintain a constant viscosity over a wide range of temperatures.  It was used for navigational chronometers and scientific and astronomical instruments.

Almost all natural waxes fats and oils will slowly react with the copper in brass creating a waxy green product of corrosion called verdigris.
It is real common to see on antique leather goods where the oxidised fats and residual tanning products used in the production of leather and its preservative coatings will react with brass rivets, buckles, and old cartridges long-time stored in belt cartridge loops. 
I'd not be surprised to see that over time, the fats and oils in a lube could react with a case, a lead bullet, or even powder (if it got hot enough to migrate down into the powder charge).
  

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