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catfish
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Paper patch question
Nov 21st, 2013 at 8:36am
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Hello everyone,

I have a #2 Remington rolling block that cambers a 38 special cartridge perfectly. Unfortunately the grooves measure .369 cal. Could I set a .358 cal. bullet out long and then paper patch it? Also any suggestions on primer, pistol or rifle, and powder type and amount would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks, Bill
  
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JSB30
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Re: Paper patch question
Reply #1 - Nov 21st, 2013 at 8:57am
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Sounds to me like it would work. Would consider using 148 gr wadcutter as to have lots of bullet shank and use any 38 Special target load from reloading manual at about 750 fps. Might consider trying a hollow base wadcutter as is, it might bump up enough to seal bore.
  
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John in PA
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Re: Paper patch question
Reply #2 - Nov 21st, 2013 at 4:26pm
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One does not need a grooveless bullet to paper patch. Any bullet of the proper diameter can be patched out to bore diameter to experiment with.  (Leave the lube off the grooved bullets when patching however, as it plays hell with getting the patches to stick to the bullet!!)
Softer lead alloy is desirable for BP or equivalent loads.  They can also be sized after the patch has dried thoroughly.  I used to spray patched dried bullets with a teflon spray and then allow it to dry before sizing.
  

John Wells
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coljimmy
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Re: Paper patch question
Reply #3 - Nov 21st, 2013 at 6:05pm
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Sounds like you have a 38 long (Ballard caliber) or extra long.  The long case is the same as 38 long Colt and the 357 Maximum case is almost identical to the XL case.  My remington measures .364-.3645 land to groove when slugged as it has 5 grooves so cannot get a groove to groove mic with an odd no. of grooves.  I found a 38XL mold on ebay a few years ago which is a heel bullet but a hollow-base inside lubricated bullet worked better.  A chamber cast would tell.  - James
  
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westerner
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Re: Paper patch question
Reply #4 - Nov 21st, 2013 at 6:12pm
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.
  

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coljimmy
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Re: Paper patch question
Reply #5 - Nov 21st, 2013 at 6:22pm
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Yep, the rounded corners got me.  Couldnt stay on them reliably with near equal width lands and grooves.
J.
  
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westerner
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Re: Paper patch question
Reply #6 - Nov 21st, 2013 at 6:47pm
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Have measured my Remington five groove bores. Micrometer/calipers never touch the rounded corners, if there are rounded corners. Look where the red line is compared to the rounded corners. Not on the rounded corners in the drawing. Will be the same when measuring a bullet or casting.   

     Joe.
  

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gunlaker
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Re: Paper patch question
Reply #7 - Nov 21st, 2013 at 6:55pm
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I'm assuming that you are loading with black powder.  If not then ignore my suggestions. Smiley

Does the chamber have any freebore?  If not I'd try a bullet 0.006" under bore ( not groove ) patched with 8 lb Seth Cole paper.   

If it has freebore, then I'd use the same bullet but breech seated.  That works very well in one of my .38-55's.

Chris.
  
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catfish
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Re: Paper patch question
Reply #8 - Nov 21st, 2013 at 10:15pm
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I get .369 measuring across the corners. using my other calipers with a pointy base, measuring from land to groove I get .365. Actually I used a commercial hollow base wad-cutter to slug the barrel. They are very slippery though, so paper may not stick. I can cast some and not lube them to take care of that. This gun was originally a rim-fire. The parts donor gun was also has a .38 special, or maybe longer chamber, but a 375 bore. Or not. The bore's in such bad shape its hard to tell.
  
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catfish
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Re: Paper patch question
Reply #9 - Nov 21st, 2013 at 10:25pm
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The chamber measures 1.185, so it's .035 longer than the .38 special case. Is breech seating a possibility, then?
  
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gunlaker
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Re: Paper patch question
Reply #10 - Nov 21st, 2013 at 11:53pm
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My paper patched bullets sit a fair distance ahead of the case mouth.  I don't have my notes handy, but it's something like 1/8" inch.

If you wet patch the paper it will stay on the bullet well enough.  You want the patch to come off at the muzzle anyway.   

Chris.
  
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bisaacson
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Re: Paper patch question
Reply #11 - Nov 22nd, 2013 at 7:55pm
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I agree with coljimmy - it looks like you have a CF conversion from a 38 Long RF. The good news is that now you can custom fit your cartridge and bullet, which would be heeled for authenticity and provide you with the pleasures and disadvantages of that period of cartridge development. Several mould makers have appropriate moulds, often oversize for the purpose of working in any manufacturer's gun, as different makers had differing ideas about proper bore size for the old RF cartridges (and chamber size, chamber length, etc. - no SAAMI in those days). My 38 Long RF Forehand & Wadsworth works well with BP and a .375 Old West mould heeled soft lead bullet. Be very conservative if you try smokeless and keep the pressures within the BP range to keep your rifle from developing a larger number of parts and your body from having extra orifices. That said, measuring the chamber length and diameter, seating the bullet you choose (after checking twist) to get the right over-all cartridge length, and working up your load should give you a pretty accurate combination if the barrel is in decent shape. Ought to be fun, too.
  
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catfish
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Re: Paper patch question
Reply #12 - Nov 23rd, 2013 at 8:38pm
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bisaacson,

Yes, I changed the breech block out from another #2.

A heeled bullet is one that has a smaller diameter base, correct?

The .38 extra long listing in cartridges of the world has the bullet at .375 cal. Perhaps there is still lead in the grooves, even after running bronze wool trough it several times.

Bill
  
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Walter  Matera
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Re: Paper patch question
Reply #13 - Nov 24th, 2013 at 4:27pm
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Perhaps, but COW isn't a 100% reliable source.  Most of the time it's on the mark but every once in a while it drops the ball.  Close visual inspection is in order.  Consider a borescope?
  
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JS47
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Re: Paper patch question
Reply #14 - Nov 28th, 2013 at 11:55pm
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I'm not an expert on paper patching but I have done some work with it.  The best paper found to date is velum.  It's the paper engineers use to draw their plans on.  You can usually buy it in tablet form at office supply shops.  Its really tough.  Cut the patch, soak in water until it curls up and lays flat again.  When you roll it on the bullet you really have to work at it to tear it and it shrinks up nice and tight.  I have lubed them with white lithium grease with teflon in spray form.  It worked great in an over sized 45-70 bore.

Shaw
  
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