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dlbarr
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Reloading for NEF 45/70
Sep 2nd, 2013 at 4:33pm
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First - I am new to reloading and have loaded only BP and some very light loads of Unique. I have both the 22" and BC barrels.

Taking some reloading ideas from Paul Matthews' book 40 yrs w/the 4570 and attempting his standard heavy hunting load of 53gr w/400gr bullet - I have the Lyman 457193 cast bullet but there is no way I can get that bullet seated in the case w/o compressing this powder charge significantly or leaving a couple of grooves exposed on the bullet. Unfortunately, my gun has no where near the available free bore to accommodate this approach. Can't believe that the chamber of these barrels are so significantly smaller than other 4570s....anybody can shed some light on this for me?  Thanks.
  
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John Boy
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Re: Reloading for NEF 45/70
Reply #1 - Sep 2nd, 2013 at 9:16pm
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(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links) 457193

The stubby ogive is the same diameter as the base and with a small leade the possibility seating the bullet out into the leading bore cuts is minimal.  Buy the 490gr Paul Matthews 457677 that is really a 'bore rider' bullet with a tapered ogive
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A new Paul Matthews design. This tapered 45 cal bullet is ideal for black powder silhouette shooting. It allows for heavier powder charges because it can be seated out of the case farther than other designs.


Option #2 - ream out the chamber so you have some leade
« Last Edit: Sep 2nd, 2013 at 9:30pm by »  
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MT Chambers
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Re: Reloading for NEF 45/70
Reply #2 - Sep 2nd, 2013 at 11:51pm
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Some brands of 45/70 brass hold significantly more BP then others ie: WW holds much more then R-P.
  
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dlbarr
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Re: Reloading for NEF 45/70
Reply #3 - Sep 3rd, 2013 at 12:35am
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I see that I neglected to specify my powder type -which makes a major difference! Matthews' choice for this load is a smokeless powder, IMR 3031. My understanding is that one dare not compress smokeless powders, whereas BP should be compressed. Hence concern about my inability to set the bullet out far enough to avoid powder compression. I am interested in hunting rather than competition shooting, that is why I've chosen the FN bullet 457193.

Thanks for any helpful advice on this.
  
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SSShooter
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Re: Reloading for NEF 45/70
Reply #4 - Sep 3rd, 2013 at 7:58am
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You might want to get the 49th Lyman Reloading Manual, which lists many loads for the 45/70 in the Trapdoor, Win 1886/Marlin 1895 and Ruger #1/3 rifles.
Pick your load depending on how heavy your bullet is and how fast you want it to go.

Going with the middle-ground loads for the 1886/1895, Lyman lists 36gr of 5744 to get your 405gr bullet going 1600fps and 40.5gr of IMR-4198 to get it up to 1717fps. I'm guessing this is out of a 26" barrel (pretty much the standard length on these rifles) so you might expect a bit more or less out of your barrel, depending on the length. You have pretty much reached the max for soft-lead bullets at these velocities. 

As for compressing smokeless, many folks compress loads for rifles like the .223R and other varmint rounds. Nothing I've read against doing so. However, that is generally for modern bolt-guns with pressure ratings up in the 60,000 range.
  
Glenn - 2x CPA 44 1/2 w/22LR (Shilen ratchet-rifled & Bartlein 5R rifled), 38-40RH & 38-55WCF (Bartlein 5R rifled) & 40-65WCF (GrnMtn 'X') barrels
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ClaMar
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Re: Reloading for NEF 45/70
Reply #5 - Sep 3rd, 2013 at 9:03am
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I'll second what the previous poster said.  That load of 3031 is pretty warm, will move that bullet pretty fast, and may result in significant leading at 17-1900 fps (est.).  It will also have considerable recoil in a fairly light rifle.

I've also used 5744 and find it almost a perfect powder in the .45-70.  I also find velocities in the 13-1500 fps range much more comfortable.

Clarence
  
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SSShooter
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Re: Reloading for NEF 45/70
Reply #6 - Sep 3rd, 2013 at 7:05pm
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Did you happen to get any chronograph data on those loads?
  
Glenn - 2x CPA 44 1/2 w/22LR (Shilen ratchet-rifled & Bartlein 5R rifled), 38-40RH & 38-55WCF (Bartlein 5R rifled) & 40-65WCF (GrnMtn 'X') barrels
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Deadeye Bly
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Re: Reloading for NEF 45/70
Reply #7 - Sep 3rd, 2013 at 9:38pm
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That 53 grain load of 3031 with a lead bullet is a recipe for severe leading. As others have said, back off to around 1200-1300 fps with lead bullets. If you want high velocity loads you are going to have to use jacketed bullets and information from a loading manual such as the Lyman one mentioned.
  
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frnkeore
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Re: Reloading for NEF 45/70
Reply #8 - Sep 4th, 2013 at 2:47am
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SSS,
I'm guessing Ken's velocity at low 1200 fps.

In my 31" Douglas barrel, I got 1330 with 24.0 gr 4759 with a 406 gr bullet and F150 primers.

Frank
  
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SSShooter
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Re: Reloading for NEF 45/70
Reply #9 - Sep 4th, 2013 at 7:51am
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Thanks. Was wondering as I use 21gr of 5744 in my 38-56 CLA silhouette Marlin 1895 pushing a 272gr bullet and have not cronyed. Am guessing my considerably lighter bullet is likely 150-200fps faster.
  
Glenn - 2x CPA 44 1/2 w/22LR (Shilen ratchet-rifled & Bartlein 5R rifled), 38-40RH & 38-55WCF (Bartlein 5R rifled) & 40-65WCF (GrnMtn 'X') barrels
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dlbarr
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Re: Reloading for NEF 45/70
Reply #10 - Sep 4th, 2013 at 4:38pm
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ClaMar wrote on Sep 3rd, 2013 at 9:03am:


I've also used 5744 and find it almost a perfect powder in the .45-70.  I also find velocities in the 13-1500 fps range much more comfortable.

Clarence


What would be your load charge of this powder with a 400gr (+/-) cast bullet?
  
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drinks
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Re: Reloading for NEF 45/70
Reply #11 - Sep 4th, 2013 at 5:56pm
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I have a .45-70 NEF, and have shot it quite a bit.
My most accurate and pleasant load and bullet is the Lee 405gr HB with 25gr AA#9 / WC820, gives 1300fps,+- and 1"groups at 50 yds, as far as I have room to shoot here.
With a 400gr gc, 35gr 4198 gives 1600fps and also 1" groups at 50 yds.To get fast, I use a 320gr gc, and either 30grAA#9,WC 820 for 1800fps or WC 680/ AA 1680, 40gr, for 1820fps.
Rel 7 , 43gr, did well with the 320gr gc, 1750-1800 fps and 1"+ groups at 50 yds.
Use any of these loads at your own risk, I worked up to them in several steps and watched carefully for any signs of problems.
  
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ClaMar
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Re: Reloading for NEF 45/70
Reply #12 - Sep 4th, 2013 at 8:30pm
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I have not tested the 400ish gr. bullets with the chronograph, but I took a 520 gr. (Postell with a 1/4" flat on the front) to Africa.  26 gr. of 5744 gave 1295 fps; 26.5 gr. gave 1356 fps out of my older Shiloh 30" barrel.  Earlier loadings with 25. gr. were ~1200 fps, IIRC.  That load killed very well, too-good combination of shock and penetration.  Everything hit well went down almost in its tracks.

Clarence
  
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ClaMar
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Re: Reloading for NEF 45/70
Reply #13 - Sep 4th, 2013 at 8:32pm
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Usually takes somewhere between 1-2 gr. more 5744 to reproduce 4759 velocities, IMO.

Calrence
  
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