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TDW
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Low wall receiver stamp question (12/2013 update)
Aug 20th, 2013 at 8:24pm
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I have been trying to find information about the meaning of this stamp on a low wall rifle I currently own.

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Under magnification it is an Arabic number 17 over a hyphen or a tilde. There is raised metal all around the stamp, which leads me to believe it was put there after the action was polished for bluing. 

Has anyone seen this stamp on any other Winchester rifle, or know the meaning of the stamp?

Thanks,
Tom W.
« Last Edit: Dec 13th, 2013 at 6:33pm by TDW »  

"The farther North you go, the more things you will run into that will eat your horse."
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Re: Low wall receiver stamp question
Reply #1 - Aug 20th, 2013 at 8:58pm
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This stamp is not unique to the 1885's. You will find a stamp like this in numerous places on Winchester rifles. It was used as an inspection or assembly mark. On some Winchester rifles I have seen as many as three different numerical stamps, all different numbers.
Each individual inspector was assigned a unique number for the purpose of identifying that person. I have also seen the use of alpha characters being used for the same purpose, although much less than the use of a numerical identifier.
It would be interesting to put a name with the number, but I don't know if those records exist.
I hope this helps shed some light on the subject.

Jesse
  
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Re: Low wall receiver stamp question
Reply #2 - Aug 20th, 2013 at 10:56pm
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Jesse,
   Actually, that does help. I know Campbell talks about inspector's stamps with hyphens under them, but I have been waiting to talk to someone who has actually seen them. I have had probably 8 high and low walls over my life, but have not seen one with a stamp on the receiver.
    The finish of this receiver is professionally done, but not like the almost flawless polishing of the Winchester products from the early 1900's. It looks as though the workman was not very familiar with how to polish the 1885, or maybe in a hurry. 
    The tool marks are right, the bluing has the look of 1920-30's Winchester, a few small polishing errors, but a good job overall. The raised metal around the edges of the stamp are intriguing to me.

This picture has the color about right

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My amateur gut hunch is that this may be a factory refinish. The Winchester Collection at Cody does not note a rework for this serial number, but there are evidently a large number of reworks that do not appear in the records.

I posted a reply to Jesse, but it has vanished. If this ends up being a redundant post, I sincerely apologize!
Thanks,
Tom W.
  

"The farther North you go, the more things you will run into that will eat your horse."
S.P. Garbe, Absaroka-Beartooth Wilderness, 1980
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Re: Low wall receiver stamp question
Reply #3 - Aug 20th, 2013 at 11:13pm
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My Pope barreled hi-wall has a tiny 16 right there behind the forend.
  
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Re: Low wall receiver stamp question
Reply #4 - Aug 21st, 2013 at 2:46am
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I have 4 HW's, only one has a number stamped and it's 17. I have one LW stamped 16 and a LW frame only, stamped 17.

I too would like to know what that number means. I have only seen those two numbers (16 & 17) stamped on rifles. Does anyone else have a rifle stamped with a different number?

Frank
  

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Re: Low wall receiver stamp question
Reply #5 - Aug 21st, 2013 at 9:05am
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Thanks for the replies gentlemen!
   Frank, Tom, and Jessie, do any of the similarly stamped receivers appear to have been refinished? If we could determine that, then the raised metal around the edges of my stamp could indicate a re-finish inspection and lend credence to the theory that this rifle has a factory applied refinish to the receiver.

The top fore to aft edge of the receiver panel shows the errors I refer to. Just slightly rolled, but the rest of the work shows no other polishing errors. ( the lighting is poor, but it allows me to highlight the mentioned errors)

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This is more information than I have been able to gather in 5 years !!
Thanks,
Tom W.
  

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Re: Low wall receiver stamp question
Reply #6 - Aug 21st, 2013 at 1:08pm
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Tom, my Pope #782 has the same marking as yours but it has definitely been refinished after being marked. Have two other highwalls that are not marked in this manner.
  

Don
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Re: Low wall receiver stamp question
Reply #7 - Aug 21st, 2013 at 3:55pm
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I have seen the 17 on quite a few highwalls and they were all .22's but others have reported them on other calibers as well.  I have a 92 Winchester with the same style of stamp but it is 26 and off to the right a little, just ahead of the lever.  My first inclination would be an inspectors stamp.
Looking at your rifle and without seeing it firsthand, the color of the reciever has that look that no modern refinisher has ever been able to duplicate.  I would say it is original. Does the tang match up with the receiver where it slides into the receiver?  The two were polished together at the factory and you might be able to see polish marks go across the seam.  What did the tang letter as?  A very nice rifle.  Bob
« Last Edit: Aug 21st, 2013 at 5:23pm by Old-Win »  
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Re: Low wall receiver stamp question
Reply #8 - Aug 21st, 2013 at 8:07pm
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I just took a look at one of my 1894's and it has the number 57 stamped on it.
I work in a restoration shop and if I get a chance I will look through the vault tomorrow and see what numbers I can come up with on other guns.
As far as factory rework goes, you are correct that records may not indicate anything. I have had the opportunity to handle hundreds of original Winchester rifles over the past 6 years or so due to my employment. Of all the guns I have handled I would say that most have had the inspector marks applied before they ever left the factory the 1st time.
There have been numerous rifles with factory letters stating they had been returned for repairs, although there would be no indication of such work being done without a letter to verify it.
There was only one special order 1886 which had been returned for factory refinish which had a stamp on the side of the top tang as well as the bottom of the barrel which read REFINISHED.
As to the polish work done on your particular 1885, I would hazard a guess that it was either an inexperienced polisher who did the work when it was initially built, which is very unlikely. Or it was returned to the factory for repair and refinish at a point when most of the original workforce had retired and quality was no longer what it used to be.

Jesse
  
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Re: Low wall receiver stamp question
Reply #9 - Aug 21st, 2013 at 9:05pm
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Bob, Jesse and everyone,
   I am leaning toward the idea of the rifle being returned for work after the 1885s were out of production. I have been trying to post for hours with no sucsess 
   Bob, the trigger bar is questionable. It has the same color and wear as the receiver but it looks to been over sanded at the point it enters the receiver. I had a friend check the records for the serial number on the bar.  He said the records state it was on a plain sporting rifle, plain wood, 26 inch # 1 barrel in .25RF, standard trigger...
   The rifle now has a 28 in. #1 barrel in 25-20 S.S., and the trigger is now the SST.

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The trigger bar appears to have been sanded out of the receiver

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The re-barrel looks to be a very professional job,
which makes me wonder if the rifle was sent back to the factory for a new barrel, change the trigger to set triggers, and refinishing of the receiver (hence, the high metal around the assemblers stamp).
                              
By the way, are my photos too large ?

Thanks,
Tom W.
  

"The farther North you go, the more things you will run into that will eat your horse."
S.P. Garbe, Absaroka-Beartooth Wilderness, 1980
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Re: Low wall receiver stamp question
Reply #10 - Aug 21st, 2013 at 9:54pm
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I don't think that those numbers indicate anything about a factory refinish.  My guess would be that the tang was taken from another rifle and added to your rifle.  Two clues, the polish marks don't match and there are slight gaps on both sides of the inletting on the lower tang. If the rifle was sent back to the factory for a rebarrel, there could be a double proof stamp on the barrel just in front of the receiver like in the picture shown.
What I like about your rifle is that other than the lower tang, it looks unmolested.  The screw slots are sharp, even the small one holding the lever pin in place.  The split pin looks like it hasn't been removed either.  Another thing is that the barrels were normally rust blued which that one looks like and the receiver has that early Winchester blue black that looks like it has depth to it.  
If it is original, you're very lucky as that type of finish would usually flake off those early guns.  73's, 85's, 86's, 92's, etc.  
I have read many different articles about that early Winchester finish that they used on the receivers of their rifles and I don't think anybody has hit on the answer to what the factory was doing back then.  Some have mentioned, carbonia bluing, others charcoal bluing but I don't think that either one are correct. I may be wrong but that's my take on it. Bob
  
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Re: Low wall receiver stamp question
Reply #11 - Aug 21st, 2013 at 10:21pm
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TDW, Here are a couple coming up for auction that are very similar to yours in condition.  Bob
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Re: Low wall receiver stamp question
Reply #12 - Aug 21st, 2013 at 11:34pm
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Old-Win wrote on Aug 21st, 2013 at 9:54pm:
If the rifle was sent back to the factory for a rebarrel, there could be a double proof stamp on the barrel just in front of the receiver like in the picture shown.


A similar TD I have was shipped as .22S in 1910,  rebarreled to LR in 1911, but exhibits the Win. proofs only on top flat & rcvr.  This brl. is marked "Nickel Steel," which I don't remember seeing on another .22RF.  Anyone know if this was this a common marking in these years?
  
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Re: Low wall receiver stamp question
Reply #13 - Aug 22nd, 2013 at 10:20am
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Bob, Jesse, and all,
   Well THAT was a real "DUH" moment for me, Bob. The rifle has no oval proof stamp on the receiver, barrel, top or bottom. No "P" stamp or anything to indicate it was barreled out side the factory.

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(Pardon the lousy color in the photo, my shop is in the basement)

I'm having to re-arrange the way I have been looking at this rifle. Old-Win's theory that it is an unmolested original rifle (with the exception of the trigger bar, which has been converted to SST from standard) would explain a LOT about it.

  So...the rifle exhibits:
 
-There is some slight flaking of the bluing on the receiver ring, but other than that it is an easy 85% Winchester factory blue and case colors on the receiver.

-high metal around the assemblers mark on the receiver.

- no buggered screws...anywhere..

-98+% oil/varnish stock finish.

-98% Winchester rust blue on the barrel.

-perfect bore and chamber (I did some cerrosafe casts of the chamber, throat, and an inch from the muzzle). 
 
   The links to the RIA auctions are great (the estimated prices were horrific!!). The receiver close-ups show an almost identical amount of ( what I would call) sanding errors.
 
   The gentleman who sold me the rifle (his grandfathers) had taken it to a gun show and was told it was " an old refinished gun, chambered for ammo you can't buy anymore, and pretty worthless". I never looked at it as a possible original finish gun. I bought it pretty cheap as a shooter, because the bore is perfect, and I have been wanting to try the 25-20 S.S. cartridge for years.

I guess there is no avoiding a trip to Cody now (about 150 m. from me). I wish I knew what the original serial number of the rifle was, but I know THAT is hopeless without something in the factory records.

I already liked the rifle, but the old girl just got a LOT prettier in MY eyes !

What an incredible resource this forum is !!
Thanks,
Tom W.
  

"The farther North you go, the more things you will run into that will eat your horse."
S.P. Garbe, Absaroka-Beartooth Wilderness, 1980
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Re: Low wall receiver stamp question
Reply #14 - Aug 22nd, 2013 at 11:49am
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I doubt my reciever ever went back to Winchester the rifle now has a 32in octagon three sides matted Stevens-Pope barrel in 32-40 stocks by O.A. Bremmer of San Francisco, The trigger plate has been milled out for a set of Bremmers multi lever DST'S. Rifle was shipped in 1902 and was 32-40 with plain trigger.
  
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Re: Low wall receiver stamp question
Reply #15 - Aug 22nd, 2013 at 12:11pm
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[quote author=6F5456646C52554F5E49483B0 link=1377044689/13#13 date=1377181239] The rifle has no oval proof stamp on the receiver, barrel, top or bottom. No "P" stamp or anything to indicate it was barreled out side the factory.

Could a gun sold to (or stolen by) an employee leave the factory without Win. proofs?  Not that I've ever heard of such a thing.   

Twice I bid on SS in Rock Island auctions, bidding slightly more than a well-known SS dealer told me would be absolutely TOP retail; guns went for about twice my bids!  After that, I recognized R.I. was way out of my league.

If I could take photos as good as yours, I'd set myself up as a professional photog.
  
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Re: Low wall receiver stamp question
Reply #16 - Aug 22nd, 2013 at 1:20pm
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From THE WINCHESTER BOOK by Madis:

Quote:
...The Winchester proof mark was first used for all except caliber .22 rifles in early 1905, when it was applied to the barrels only. Caliber .22 rifle barrels began to receive the proof mark in 1908, and in 1908 all guns were marked on both barrel and receiver with the Winchester Proof Mark.
   All barrels and receivers which were furnished for fitting by outside parties were marked with the mail order proof, a letter P in an oval, from 1912 and on.


also

Quote:
ASSEMBLERS MARK-NUMBERS FROM 1 TO 200 WITH DASH.....

The assemblers mark numbers with a dash directly underneath the numbers were 0.070" tall.

« Last Edit: Aug 22nd, 2013 at 1:28pm by BP »  

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Re: Low wall receiver stamp question
Reply #17 - Aug 22nd, 2013 at 4:54pm
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Wow !! Thanks for all the info, gentlemen,
    I'm not sure why I don't have a copy of the Madis book, but I know where to borrow one. I have more reading to do  Smiley.  I have Campbell's books and Grant's Single Shot books, but I swear I learn as much or more lurking here !!

    Redsetter, I went to the Colt Collectors Assn. show in Reno some years back. RIA was there with many, many "jaw dropping" firearms (including Gustav Young's famous "tears of Gettysburg" M1861 Colt,  unbelievable !! and two Walker Colts with the same serial number !!). I don't know if their appraisals are high on not, but they were busy selling the whole weekend! Thanks for the compliment on the pics, my old Nikon D200 and I have a lot of miles together.

    So... It would appear there is some pretty good reason to think this could be a pre-1908, original finish rifle, with a replaced trigger bar. I will definitely try to get to Cody with it in the next few weeks, if I can arrange to have some one there to look at it in person. I will make some calls and make the trip, and tell you gentlemen what I find out when I get back. 

   I simply can't thank you all enough, for taking time to share your knowledge and comments with me !!

Think I'll move it to the front of the gun safe !!

Tom W.
« Last Edit: Aug 22nd, 2013 at 7:28pm by TDW »  

"The farther North you go, the more things you will run into that will eat your horse."
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Re: Low wall receiver stamp question (update:12/2013)
Reply #18 - Dec 13th, 2013 at 10:41am
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Gentlemen (Bob,Jesse,Tom, et al ),
   I thought I was going to be able to travel to Cody much sooner than is possible. I have done the next best thing...I had a good and very knowledgeable friend take the little rifle to Cody for me !! The great people at Wyoming Armory (who have a vast, cumulative experience with hundreds of original model 1885's) spent some time examining my rifle and both agree that it is an original finish rifle with a swapped out trigger bar. They said the blue, wood finish, and workmanship are exactly what you would expect to see on a pre-1905, blued, low wall. The trigger bar serial number (according to the museum records) indicates it was taken from a .25 RF rifle, with standard trigger, that was delivered in late 1904. At some point the trigger bar was converted from a standard trigger to the single set trigger that now resides in the gun. They said the trigger bar swapping was very common early on, and as it is usually the only serial number on the rifle the result is, two rifles loose their identity and history. 
   I bought this rifle solely on the merits of it's bore condition and good mechanics (and it was cheap!). It has certainly been a treat to learn about the original finish and the stamps.   
   My thanks to all who have contributed to this thread and to the great people at Wyoming Armory in Cody. Who knows ?...someday I may even get to shoot it !!!! It will definitely live in the front of the safe from now on !
Tom W.
« Last Edit: Dec 13th, 2013 at 6:31pm by TDW »  

"The farther North you go, the more things you will run into that will eat your horse."
S.P. Garbe, Absaroka-Beartooth Wilderness, 1980
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