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boats
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1/20 vs 1/25 vs 1/30
Jul 3rd, 2013 at 2:13pm
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Always one to keep things simple like to cast everything out of 1/25  Last order the supplier said I ought to try 1/20 for 32/40 200 grs. He suggested I  go to 1/30 for 40/65 440 grs.

My nose pour 32 mold was cranky hard to get good bullets. Went for the 1/20 and it cast like it ought too. Nice fill out low reject rate.  Small bullet small sprue hole more tin helps fill out for sure.

Jury is out on the 1/30 with a fast twist heavy 40, It ought to work well can't say for sure just yet. Large mold lot of mass fill out is not an issue 1/30 cast just fine

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« Last Edit: Jul 3rd, 2013 at 2:38pm by boats »  
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Re: 1/20 vs 1/25 vs 1/30
Reply #1 - Jul 4th, 2013 at 9:24am
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Boats,
Could you measure any appreciable size difference in your .32 cal. bullets when you went to 1-20?  Bob
  
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Re: 1/20 vs 1/25 vs 1/30
Reply #2 - Jul 4th, 2013 at 10:37am
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Bob,

I could not measure any size difference 1/20 vs 1/25

Suspect it's too small to be measured with a common shop mike.   

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Re: 1/20 vs 1/25 vs 1/30
Reply #3 - Jul 4th, 2013 at 12:35pm
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re: size   I've found that mould and alloy temperature can easily vary the diameters.  (as well as how fast it's filled or distance under the bottom pour furnace).

My question is one of accuracy.

Of the alloys, which is easier to shoot accurately?

(For me, COST of tin is not an issue as it's cheaper than lead.

Precision casting is easier with a bit of antimony - but the curse of it is hardness and harder to achieve accuracy.


  

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Re: 1/20 vs 1/25 vs 1/30
Reply #4 - Jul 4th, 2013 at 1:01pm
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My groups tightened considerably when I went to 1:25 from 1:30 in my 40-70SS.  I'm now shooting 1:22 in my 45-70-90's.  I think there is an improvement there at the longer ranges but that's only from what I can tell from the few times that I get to shoot those distances.  Have no measurably proof.  Too many other variables in the mix.  Bob
  
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Re: 1/20 vs 1/25 vs 1/30
Reply #5 - Jul 4th, 2013 at 2:58pm
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CW if your are using a long spitzer design, the extra strength in the richer tin alloy helps to minimize nose slump. What I mean by this is that long unsupported nose section due to the centrifugal force encountered will slump or maybe a better word to help visualize what is taking place would be pushed out of being central with the bore creating an imbalance to the bullet. With these designs I have found the hardest lead and tin alloy that does not create a leading issue will indeed provide better accuracy and 1-16 has worked very well for me over the years. A close friend did some catch box testing quite a few years back and found nose slumps from 5 to 12 thousandths with if memory serves me right 1-25. His testing is what prompted me to try harder lead and tin alloys and they have worked very well for me. Bullet fit might become a tad more critical due to possibly less bullet bump up. The possibility of less bullet bump up is pure speculation on my part. Another thing to take into consideration is what is happening to the bullet when it fills the grooves and changes it's original form by displacement of the alloy. We also want this taking place in such a manner as to not have the nose slump from again being central with the bore. This is where having having all of the lube grooves equally filled also comes into play. If one side of the bullet is lacking more lube than the other, the lacking side will displace more alloy into the groove creating a bullet imbalance and possibly inducing more nose slump. I hope you find this information helpful and that I did not make it to confusing.
  

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Re: 1/20 vs 1/25 vs 1/30
Reply #6 - Jul 7th, 2013 at 7:34pm
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Most helpful, John -

I usually read through your posts 3 times (because you stuff so much knowledge in them).

I guess I need to run my own tests with the typical bullets I use - to compare them and pick the best.

  

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Re: 1/20 vs 1/25 vs 1/30
Reply #7 - Jul 7th, 2013 at 8:09pm
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CW it surely is worth the effort and I wish you the best.
  

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Re: 1/20 vs 1/25 vs 1/30
Reply #8 - Jul 9th, 2013 at 3:25pm
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I shot 20:1 for ten years. I switched to 25:1 for a couple of years when I had trouble finding tin and my scores dropped slightly. Switched back to 20:1 and my scores increased as much as they had previously dropped.

For bullet quality I found very liittle differences between these two alloys. And it takes extensive shooting to show a difference in accuracy when using these alloys. Difference was minor (from competition results) and could have been statistical error.

Tommy Mason tested a number of alloys and found 20:1 and 25:1 performed the best with cast bullets. So Tommy compromised and has been shooting 22.5:1 ever since his testing. He indicated he probably had nose slumping when he tested 30:1.

Tommy and my tests were with .32 caliber bullets.
  
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Re: 1/20 vs 1/25 vs 1/30
Reply #9 - Jul 9th, 2013 at 3:51pm
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Dave great information, we only differ in my thinking from my extensive testing that 1-18 would probably make for the best all around alloy in regards to long pointed bullet use. The only down side I have found when sharing my findings is the unwillingness to pay the additional cost of the tin for the increase in accuracy. I hear I can't get my rifle to shoot up to par all the time, so I share what little I really know and the bottom line quite typically is they really don't want to. Either due to a little additional cost such as the tin or the time and effort it actually takes to try all of possible improvements they have yet to try. One fellow out my way thinks if he buys enough rifles at some point in time one of them is bound to put him in the winners circle. In reality all of the ones he has purchased to date would probably do exactly that with a little time effort and possibly a minor additional cost for the correct alloy.
  

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Re: 1/20 vs 1/25 vs 1/30
Reply #10 - Jul 9th, 2013 at 5:23pm
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since when is tin cheaper than lead?  art
  
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Re: 1/20 vs 1/25 vs 1/30
Reply #11 - Jul 9th, 2013 at 5:59pm
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when is tin cheaper than lead?

Only when you can pick up lead solder waste at the radiator shop for nothing.  Roll Eyes

But virgin "Tin" here costs about 10 times the price of lead.  Cry
  
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Re: 1/20 vs 1/25 vs 1/30
Reply #12 - Jul 9th, 2013 at 6:04pm
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art_ruggiero wrote on Jul 9th, 2013 at 5:23pm:
since when is tin cheaper than lead?  art


That's just for me.  (I buy the scrap/dross lead-free solder scraps from work.  96% tin 3.5% silver and 0.5% copper.)  And sell it AT THE ASSRA matches for $6 a pound.

I'm not into mailing it.  (As I've relearned of recent doing a batch for a respected friend.)  Melt it down, clean it, cast into ingots.  After that commitment is fulfilled, I may put a batch on ebay for $10 a pound + shipping.
  

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Re: 1/20 vs 1/25 vs 1/30
Reply #13 - Jul 9th, 2013 at 9:13pm
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Who said the Tin was cheaper, it is about 5 times more expensive than the lead and the reason some shy away from the benefits of a richer Tin alloy.
  

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