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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) At the range today (Read 13327 times)
CanoeRoller
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Re: At the range today
Reply #15 - Jun 20th, 2013 at 11:08pm
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Here are some links that can help explain the basics of black powder loading,

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Good luck with your black powder shooting  - once I started more than 20 year ago, I pretty much put all my modern firearms away.  BP is more challenging and a heck of a lot more fun.
  
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Kermit1945
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Re: At the range today
Reply #16 - Jun 20th, 2013 at 11:15pm
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I often have this problem with feigning ignorance--I'm believed. Undecided
  

"Speed's fine, but accuracy's final." Bill Jordan
"Anything worth doing is worth doing slowly." Mae West
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BigOtto
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Re: At the range today
Reply #17 - Jun 21st, 2013 at 6:17am
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A lot of information to sift through here.  
Yes, this is my first attempt at BP Cartridge loading.
Yes, I have Venturino's book.
Yes, My chronograph was probably too close to the muzzle.
Yes, I used a drop tube.
No, I did not compress the load further before seating the bullet.
My bullet lube is Buck Emmert's Lube Formula and I pan lubed my bullets.
The cardboard wad was cut from tablet backing with a  7/16" stainless gasket punch.
I am using a Lee 500gr bullet mold, what are your opinions of this bullet?
Are the other available bullet molds significantly better?
Are the pre-lubed store bought bullets significantly better?

So, it seems there is more to this than what the primer has to offer on the surface.  For the life of me I cannot sit here and tell you what I have done either correctly or incorrectly.  I do not know anyone else that loads BP cartridge.  Heck, I am the most experienced smokeless cartridge handloader I know. 

I will check out the links posted here and see what else I learn.

Thanks for the help.

 

  
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boats
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Re: At the range today
Reply #18 - Jun 21st, 2013 at 8:02am
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Otto

Been a Trapdoor BP shooter 40 odd years half a dozen different full rifles, carbines and one H&R reproduction. Plinking Hunting and Match shooting even a little bit of 1000 yard competition. Almost all Black powder. Only one I never used was a copy of the Arsenal long range match rifles used in competition against Sharps Remingtons and the like.   I like them much better than the period commercial actions. Excepting the Long range guns or a few one off light sporting rifles Springfields were Military rifles not built for competition.

Due stock shape ill suited to sand bags. Sight on the barrel not close to your eye & short sight radius. Large side hammer, heavy trigger pull, variable bore sizes & "bumped up" bullets, Trapdoors are 4 moa Rifles.  Not to say a few shots may land close, 10 shot groups under 4 inches at 100 yards is normal performance.

I doubt if anybody can refine or even tell one black powder load from another way a Trapdoor handles on bags.  Use a bullet that fits the bore, lubed with good grease properly seated, consistent black powder charge with a hot primer is about all you need to do to get Arsenal quality ammunition. 

Best book on the topic is Wolfe's "Loading for the original Trapdoor". Wolfe draws heavaly on Arsenal loaded ammunition specs with modern components Government arsenals did extensive work on 45/70 performance in Springfield rifles, no one has come up with anything better

Enjoy it for what it is, a retired War Horse. Don't pay any attention to Internet group sizes.

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Re: At the range today
Reply #19 - Jun 21st, 2013 at 8:52am
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Did a little digging on line I remembered Trapdoor Groups in postal matches when I was shooting CBA 20 odd years ago under 4 MOA in the "as issued" Military class

Recent records a bit better however these are records, best of the best, not averages or even single match winning groups.

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Compare your Trapdoor results as a bench mark.

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CanoeRoller
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Re: At the range today
Reply #20 - Jun 21st, 2013 at 8:57am
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You may want to compress the wad and powder just a tiny bit as you seat the round, maybe a 64th of an inch.

Your lube should work fine to start.

Make sure your wad matches the size of your bore.

I am not a fan of lee molds, but what really matters is this, what is the diameter of the slug's nose and the diameter on the grease grooves?  The nose should be about 2/1000 narrower than your barrel diameter, and the grease grooves about 1/1000 wider than the barrel diameter.  What sort of alloy are you casting?  Changing alloy can change the size of the round as cast, and some rifles prefer different alloys.

There are much better molds out there.  You get what you pay for.  Any mass produced molds are risky, as they can vary in diameter from one mold to the next.  Today's mold may fit your rifle, tomorrow's will not. This is probably historically accurate though - in the old days there was more variation than today.

Store bought bullets does not compare well to properly home cast rounds.
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CanoeRoller
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Re: At the range today
Reply #21 - Jun 21st, 2013 at 9:04am
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Wait a moment...are you using the Lee spitzer shaped mold?  If you are you want to cast a rather hard alloy, as the narrow nose can slump upon firing.
  
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SSShooter
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Re: At the range today
Reply #22 - Jun 21st, 2013 at 10:33am
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Quote:

Are the other available bullet molds significantly better?

So, it seems there is more to this than what the primer has to offer on the surface.  For the life of me I cannot sit here and tell you what I have done either correctly or incorrectly.  I do not know anyone else that loads BP cartridge.  Heck, I am the most experienced smokeless cartridge handloader I know. 

There are several better moulds than Lee, who is the 'low price leader' for a reason. Generally, the more you pay the better you get with moulds. But, depending on what you are trying to accomplish, Lee may be fine. Lee, Lyman, RCBS, Saeco, BACo and then custom by Brooks, Hoch, Jones and others is a reasonable bottom-to-top rule-of-thumb. 

Have you slugged your barrel? If not, then your bullet could be either too large or too small. If too large, then you can often size to the correct dimension. If too small, then you are generally in need of another mould/bullet. 

If you were shooting brass for the first time, you may find that your fire-formed brass gives better results the second and subsequent times out.

Can you tell us what 'custom' means in relation to your TD? Lined or after-market barrel, etc.

What mix of lead are you casting with? As mentioned above, you may using too soft a mix and the bullet is not holding its shape.

Where do you live? You may be close to someone who would be more then happy to help get you rolling with BP. However, think you are well on your way and asking questions here is a good place for additional info. 
  

Glenn - 2x CPA 44 1/2 w/22LR (Shilen ratchet-rifled & Bartlein 5R rifled), 38-40RH & 38-55WCF (Bartlein 5R rifled) & 40-65WCF (GrnMtn 'X') barrels
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Re: At the range today
Reply #23 - Jun 21st, 2013 at 10:46am
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Canoe's advice is good

Most loading for Trapdoors use a near duplicate of the original Arsenal bullet. Either the 500 gr or 405 carbine bullet. Match performance score wise may be better with the 405 due less recoil even if the 500 groups better. That was my opinion when I shot them a lot.

As a general rule largest bullet that will seat in the case and chamber is the right one. Cast out of soft lead/tin  1/30 about as hard as you want to go, never any animony.  I mostly used molds that threw about .460 and it's about all you can load and seat properly.  Firing it either squeezes down or bumps up depending on the Trapdoor.

If you set up a modern Trapdoor, Modern heavy barrel consitent bore, tang or scope sights, wide flat forearm. Flat butt plate Set triggers whole 9 yards, you could expect precesion. Barrel alone carefull loading will pay dividens. Add improved bag riding and sights no reason they won't shoot under 2 moa . Action itself is as good as a Sharps or Remington.

Issue Trapdoor go large, soft, case full of 2 F black, and let the bump up take care of bullet fit.

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CanoeRoller
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Re: At the range today
Reply #24 - Jun 21st, 2013 at 12:38pm
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Generally, with a trapdoor, you will get a bit better accuracy with a 400 grain slug, as that was how the trapdoor was first set up.  Most modern repo's have a tighter twist for the longer slugs we prefer today.
  
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BigOtto
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Re: At the range today
Reply #25 - Jun 21st, 2013 at 12:41pm
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Here she is in all she is today.
  
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BigOtto
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Re: At the range today
Reply #26 - Jun 21st, 2013 at 12:47pm
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And another.  Not really satisfied with the metal finish.
  
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CanoeRoller
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Re: At the range today
Reply #27 - Jun 21st, 2013 at 12:47pm
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I would not feel too bad about a 4 inch group for my first attempt.   Lots of loaders whine about their 12 inch first attempts.  As I recall, my first group was about 6 inches.  It took me a few months to get that to shrink down to 4 inches at 200 yards.  You may also find you shoot better groups at a longer range, long slugs need time to stabilize.

  
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Walter  Matera
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Re: At the range today
Reply #28 - Jun 21st, 2013 at 12:58pm
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Damn, Otto, I like those!  They're very close to what I intend to do with the old trapdoor in my safe.  Where did you get those steel pistol grips, or are those part of the trigger guard?
  
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Re: At the range today
Reply #29 - Jun 21st, 2013 at 1:00pm
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Otto

She's nice but still a sporting rifle, pay attention to how it's held when on a rest. I suggest right in front of the forestock barrel on your rest buttplate in your shoulder elbows on the bench. Let the barrel touch the rest nothing else. 

Barrel is new so throw all my past suggestions out. Slug it and get a mold that fits. Right bullet for smokeless is a different one than for Black Powder.  BP you want wide groves to carry more grease.  Smokeless bullet a bit larger because they don't bump up perhaps .001 or .002 over bore size. New barrel able to fit the bullet to the job I would be using 400 grs flat base cast out of 1/30 if hunting get a flat nose round is Ok for targets. 

For black you need a fowling management routine. Blow tubes are popular, I prefer to wipe every shot target work. Trapdoor use a 3/8 inch Delrin rod that will bend so you can wipe from the breech. 

Hunting it's only a shot or two can get away with no wipes if the bullet has wide groves and carries a good lube like SPG. Just prove what it does fowled on paper before taking it into the field.

Thing that would hold me back on the target range with your outfit would be the open rear sight.  Accurate .22 same sight doubt if most of us could group 3 moa at 100. Hunting it's the sight I would want. When I used to hunt with my Trapdoor carbine never used the Buffington extended always the open barrel sight.

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