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hobbspal
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new here and casting question
May 26th, 2013 at 1:49pm
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hi everyone,
this is my first post and i want to give a big howdy to everyone.  i've been lurking for some time since i got interested in bpcr.  i came into this though a friend who was shooting trapdoors.  i did my research and ended up ordering a cpa 45/70 with kelley sights, since my friend had all the reloading gear for it.  when he saw what i'd ordered, he also ordered a cpa 45/70 except for a mva scope.

we've been out several times and have been reloading with bullets he cast previously.  yesterday, i went to his place for our first joint casting session.  i'm a machinist by trade, so i wanted to see what the difference was between the two molds we were using.  both are lyman 457132  535gr postell.

i found that all of what we were casting were out of round by .002 to .004 with most in the .003 range.  

we have a 75 lb lead pot running at 810f.  the lead is 40/1.

i'm hoping someone will pass on some valuable experience.  will high end paul jones and the like make a difference?  i'm thinking its a temperature thing.  

also, what is the acceptible limit for out of round.

thanks in advance for reading this.

  
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John in PA
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Re: new here and casting question
Reply #1 - May 26th, 2013 at 3:59pm
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Cherry-cut molds are potentially a bit more out of round than lathe bored.  However, 3-4 thou is probably beyond what would be considered acceptable.  Get a good magnifier and examine mold faces for minute burrs or debris that might be preventing complete closure.  Putting a sheet of 400 grit wet/dry paper on a piece of plate glass with careful work will remove slightly raised areas along the edges of the cavity and dowel holes if they're present.  Dowel pins can have protrusion adjusted so that the mold releases easily but there is NO diagonal play between the faces.  If the faces check out perfectly clean and flat, then the variation exists within the cavity itself, and there may be little that can be done other than using the blocks as a "blank" to lathe-cut a larger caliber bullet.
  
Whether a .003" variation will make a noticeable difference in accuracy (assuming bullets will be sized before shooting) MAY not matter if you're not at the top of the competitive game with a caliber as large as .45.  But it does increase the pressure it takes to press the bullet through the die, and with a 1:40 alloy, increased sizing effort increases the chances for distortion of the bullet,especially with a long unsupported nose like the Postell. 

Just a few thoughts...

Oh, and welcome aboard!! Smiley
  

John Wells
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Peabody and Peabody-Martini's Wanted!
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SSShooter
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Re: new here and casting question
Reply #2 - May 26th, 2013 at 5:30pm
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Lyman are excellent moulds.............. for the money. With a custom mould (Brooks, Jones, BACo, etc.) you get a more precision mould that you pay a fair amount more for. Generally casts a nicer bullet once you know the temp it likes the best (around 750-775F). However, many matches have been won and records set with Lyman, Saeco and other "standard" moulds.

Are you sizing the bullets when lubing? The sizing die should take most of the 'out of round' out of the bullet. However, being a bit out of round is not crucial as the bullet is relatively soft and fills the bore/lands upon firing. 

As an aside, most folks shoot 16, 20 or 25-1 in their 45/70s in my experience. If too soft the nose tends to slump or droop or deform upon firing.
  

Glenn - 2x CPA 44 1/2 w/22LR (Shilen ratchet-rifled & Bartlein 5R rifled), 38-40RH & 38-55WCF (Bartlein 5R rifled) & 40-65WCF (GrnMtn 'X') barrels
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creedmoormatch
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Re: new here and casting question
Reply #3 - May 26th, 2013 at 5:44pm
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  Let me join with John in PA in Welcoming you to the A.S.S.R.A. Forum.  The added attraction for me is that you are the proud owner of a CPA/Stevens actioned rifle.  The CPA's are really great, aren't they.

Hobbs-Pal (did I get that right?), Just a couple of comments for your consideration.  I realize that your first bullet casting session was at your friend's location, using his equipment; but when you get ready to set-up your own casting arrangements, consider this.

I have found that large size furnaces, pots and ladles are more of a hindrance than they are a benefit.  A 75 pound pot of lead is more like what an old time plumber would use for poured joints with cast iron pipe.  Even if you were to be casting 500 grain .45 cal Gov't bullets, a smaller pot is better.  there are 7,000 grains to the pound, so you will get approximately 14 such bullets to the pound of lead.

I decided a long time ago that I would put less lead down range when shooting paper.

My second point is to purchase the best customer bullet mould that you budget will accommodate , for your second mould.  Get your first mould at the least amount of cost to you.  Use the first mould to "introduce you to the sport, the caliber, the rifle, etc., etc.  Your initial investment into BPCR shooting has been made, i.e., your CPA rifle.  Now experiment with different style nose bullets and different weight bullets.  Your are striving for accuracy, so don't rush out and expedite the process.  The process takes time, so give it time and make decisions as you progress.  When trial and error have shown you the way for your rifle; then purchase your second mould from a custom (big name) maker.

Good luck and keep us posted,

Creedmoormatch in PA
.
  
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Old-Win
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Re: new here and casting question
Reply #4 - May 26th, 2013 at 5:54pm
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Chances are that you and your buddy probably have the same barrel manufacturer and cut by the same reamer. Buy a .459" sizing die and sizer.  Lube your bullets first and then pass through the sizer.  I do this to keep my neck tension uniform. After loading some and since you're a machinist, see if you can measure the runout on the bullet towards the nose.  If it's within a few thousandths, it should be fine. If you can't resize right now, remember that they'll be round when they come out of the barrel.  Cast at 20:1 or 25:1 lead to tin.  
The Postell is a good bullet and I once had one that actually made a bullet that stood a little crooked but still shot great.  More trigger time will shrink groups as much as a better mold.  Bob
  
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hobbspal
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Re: new here and casting question
Reply #5 - May 26th, 2013 at 8:06pm
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thanks so much for the welcome and good advice.  i've never shot a gun before (one clip through an m1 in navy boot camp) so this is all really new.  my friend has a LOT of experience.  boy, i'll tell you that 8 " dot looks really tiny at 200 yards through the peep.

we're going to re-test hardness and go from there with a 750-770 temp.
  
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Re: new here and casting question
Reply #6 - May 26th, 2013 at 8:27pm
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Hobbspal:
    Think I havent seen it above, But if you cant improve your moulds roundness ( and even if you can )  many shooters index thier moulds and then orrient the bullet the same way in the chamber for each shot.
     and  Welcome!
  
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Re: new here and casting question
Reply #7 - May 27th, 2013 at 10:12am
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Old-Win wrote on May 26th, 2013 at 5:54pm:
More trigger time will shrink groups as much as a better mold.  Bob

Amen to this advice.
Our 2-piece stocks/rifles are very much more susceptible to accuracy problems when holding the gun differently shot-to-shot. Try to find a comfortable position and hold the rifle exactly the same on each shot. If you change your hold in any way the shot will show it. BPCR shooting requires great consistency. Something I'm just starting to achieve. as I get into my 2nd full season of silhouettes.
  

Glenn - 2x CPA 44 1/2 w/22LR (Shilen ratchet-rifled & Bartlein 5R rifled), 38-40RH & 38-55WCF (Bartlein 5R rifled) & 40-65WCF (GrnMtn 'X') barrels
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40_Rod
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Re: new here and casting question
Reply #8 - May 27th, 2013 at 11:21am
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If you have not yet done so don't bother buying sizing dies. All they will do is push some of the lead around on the edges and leave the center unbalanced. Take the money you would have used for a new mold and the sizing dies and the lubrisizer go to a good custom mold maker. Most will have a recommendation on size and style that you should use for best results. Unlike the big-box places where you order something and they take a number off a shelf. In the long run you will save money.

40 Rod
  
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Leo1885
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Re: new here and casting question
Reply #9 - May 27th, 2013 at 1:09pm
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If you want to use a lubrisizer just to lube bullets get a sizing die that's .001" over the bullet diameter as cast.
  
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CaryT
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Re: new here and casting question
Reply #10 - May 27th, 2013 at 2:16pm
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Boy;
How long have most of us old guys been shooting, I hate to think about it.  Years and years and thousands and thousands of rounds.  We've loaded this poor guys head with a ton right at the git-go, his head is probably swimming.
'Hobbs', listen, you have made a great purchase on the rifle.
You are 'just starting out' shooting it. 
Cast what you have.  I started @ 40-1 also.  Learn how to cast with what ya brought.  There are many variables to learn and MASTER, temp, time, handle pressure, alloy etc. Learn how to make good bullets with what you've got. When you learn this you can take the info to the next mold, and on the way you will learn many things about loading, shooting, etc, etc, etc.
Those of us that have many years invested in the sport are most often way to willing to provide info, often good,  sometimes bad, but I think we probably try to get people running before they can even walk and we all know you can't do that.   
Take your time.  Seek info and learn how to use it, but remember it will take time,,, and to get really good, lot's of it.
Enjoy and welcome aboard.   Wink

Cary
  
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Re: new here and casting question
Reply #11 - May 27th, 2013 at 4:08pm
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Well said Cary.  Shoot a few bullets that you have cast.
See what happens. Then with a little experience, go for a better mould, etc.
Kurt
  

M-14 3rd Battalion 27th Marines RVN 68'69'
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hobbspal
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Re: new here and casting question
Reply #12 - May 27th, 2013 at 4:14pm
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thanks for your comment cary.  yes, it can feel a bit like taking  a drink from a fire hydrant.........

seems like the main thing i need is patience.

thanks again to everyone resoponding Wink
  
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Re: new here and casting question
Reply #13 - May 27th, 2013 at 10:30pm
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Your experiences mirror my own starting with this hobby, Im a machinist also, me and one of the shops welders play with the 45-70 except I use a shiloh and he shoots a Remington.

First thing you should do is try some out bullets, just do a plain pan lube and work up a suitable load, reloader 7 has been kind to me and lately plain old black powder never dissapoints.

Next step is taking a read of this, read about "Beagling" a mould. (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

While I like the postell, the lyman 500 grain roundnose is my personal favourite, Im going to eventually try the pointy shmitzer bullet next.   

Enjoy the time out, take your time and any day out shooting is a good one.  Remember that as you learn to load an accurate cartridge.
  
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imalarduss
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Re: new here and casting question
Reply #14 - May 28th, 2013 at 8:02am
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i got started casting by making sinkers and jig heads to go fishing with.  since i like to reload and shoot as much, if not more, than fishing i figured even as dumb as i am i could make shootable bullets.  straight wheelweights work well for me with lots of different styles and weights of bullets.  got a never ending supply of wheelweights so that helped influence me in that direction.  nothing like getting out and casting and shooting what you've cast to show you what you're doing, or not doing, correctly.  some people don't like the casting aspect of shooting but i do.  don't get in a rush and pay attention to what you are doing.  one of the nice things about casting lead is that if you make a mistake you can always re-melt it and do something different.  it is a fun hobby.
  
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