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Van
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Non throated chamber
May 19th, 2013 at 4:38pm
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Can you except any kind accuracy with cast bullets from a non throated chamber?
I just had a 32-40 chambered but no one around here has a 32 throat reamer, so I was going to try some bsing and fixed loads, but that it may be worthless.
Remakes please.... Tongue
  
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frnkeore
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Re: Non throated chamber
Reply #1 - May 19th, 2013 at 6:55pm
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For BSing, it won't hurt anything as long as you use a tapered bullet. You can get "hunting" accuracy if you use a good fitting bore riding bullet.

Frank
  

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gunlaker
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Re: Non throated chamber
Reply #2 - May 19th, 2013 at 7:53pm
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I think it depends on how you define accuracy.  The Browning 1885 rifles in .45-70 have won their share of Silhouette matches and they have zero freebore.  Dan Theodore has been advocating zero freebore chambers for long range black powder shooting using bullets designed to seat well into the bore.  Several shooters have been doing quite well with them.   They do work quite well if paper patched bullets are your thing.

Chris.
  
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JLouis
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Re: Non throated chamber
Reply #3 - May 19th, 2013 at 8:19pm
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Even if using a tapered bullet the chances of not damaging the bullet while trying to seat, if you can even seat it are pretty high. I have seen two unthroated rifles here recently and you could seat a bullet in either one.
  

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Quarter_Bore
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Re: Non throated chamber
Reply #4 - May 19th, 2013 at 8:24pm
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Throating is absolutely not needed to get accuracy when breech seating. All that is required is to have a mold made that has the front few bands bore riding (I like .002 to .004 over bore dia.) This is not a big deal and keeps you from having to alter a rifle- which, if it is an original, is a big deal. Now that I have said that I will add that you may be able to breech seat regular cylindrical bullets in a chamber not set up with a special throat with a mechanical breech seater and get good accuracy. (My most accurate rifle(has shot 250s) is set up like this)You just need to try and see. This will be harder to decide if you have little experience shooting breech seated bullets because there is a tendency to blame equipment for shortcomings which are the shooters.
« Last Edit: May 19th, 2013 at 9:10pm by Quarter_Bore »  
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Re: Non throated chamber
Reply #5 - May 19th, 2013 at 8:44pm
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Quarter_Bore wrote on May 19th, 2013 at 8:24pm:

...
This will be harder to decide if you have little experience shooting breech seated bullets because there is a tendency to blame equipment for shortcomings which are the shooters.


I always enjoy succinct statements of observed truths!

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Van
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Re: Non throated chamber
Reply #6 - May 19th, 2013 at 11:27pm
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oh, i have been shooting schuetzen matches for the last 4 years and the other 3 guns that i have had throats cut for tapered bullets. This will be my wifes CPA 32-40 I do have a Weber seater so the tapered bullets that I do have will go in but there is a share start to the rifling, i was just concerned that the bullet was being deformed but the sharp rifling at the start of the chamber.
So that is where I am right now.

van
  
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bpjack
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Re: Non throated chamber
Reply #7 - May 19th, 2013 at 11:42pm
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I am working the same issue with my 32-40.  I am shooting the 200 gr Saeco bullet which has bands tapering from .314 to .321.  It still needs some effort to fully seat it with a stirrup style seater in my Ballard.  It is finally starting to show promise.  I had several good groups discounting a pesky flyer here and there.  I was doing some powder charge testing and settled on 13.3 gr of 4227 and a 30-1 alloy in my RKS 11.5 gain twist barrel.  That combination gave me one 5 shot group measuring 1 1/8 " at 200 yds on Thursday.  I hope to get out to the range this week to try and duplicate that.  I am by no means an experienced breach seater, so I usually blame poor groups on my technique, the wind, bad luck and/or sunspots.
Its all FUN!
If I do want to have the barrel throated eventually, whom do you recommend?

Thanks

Jack
  

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Van
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Re: Non throated chamber
Reply #8 - May 20th, 2013 at 12:56am
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Jack, beats me...
  
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Old-Win
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Re: Non throated chamber
Reply #9 - May 20th, 2013 at 8:39am
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I think there may be some confusion again between throat and leade.  My shooting partner just got his rifle back from having it rebarreled in 32-40 and we tried breech seating a .322" base band Pope style bullet and it shaves lead off the last base band.  It appears that the chamber ends abruptly at 90 degrees.  Leaving that ring of lead certainly wouldn't be good, would it?  What can he do to fix the situation?  Smaller diameter on the base band?
  
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40_Rod
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Re: Non throated chamber
Reply #10 - May 20th, 2013 at 9:57am
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Lister to Quarter Bore he knows what he is talking about. A few issues ago I reprinted an article that Ken wrote on the  proper fitting of a bullet to the chamber that you have. I felt that it was an important article and enough years had passed that there was a whole new audience that didn't have the information. Look that article up there are more bullet styles than just cylindrical and tapered. 

40 Rod
  
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Quarter_Bore
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Re: Non throated chamber
Reply #11 - May 20th, 2013 at 11:03am
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I agree that a 90 degree end of a chamber is not good but I do not think that any reamer makers would make something like that (I hope) If I remember right most chambers taper at about 15 degrees from the outside neck diameter to the  bore diameter of the barrel and often this is good enough but almost all chambers have some sort of short throat so that a cartridge with a bullet seated can enter the chamber. This is why bullets are seated 1/16 to 1/8" ahead of the case. Even .32-40 and .38-55 have that.
Yes, there is a lot of confusion between lead and throats. This has caused the ruin of many original rifles. If you give a typical gunsmith a rifle and tell him you want it throated for a certain bullet he will remove all of the rifling that will touch the bullet.This kinda removes the advantage of breech seating and ruins the rifle. What you really usually want in a modern barrel is some sort of lead to let the bullet enter easily. (this should not be done and is not necessary in original rifles- see bullet recommendation above)
« Last Edit: May 20th, 2013 at 11:29am by Quarter_Bore »  
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frnkeore
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Re: Non throated chamber
Reply #12 - May 20th, 2013 at 12:40pm
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People have been BSing the standard 32/40 chamber for over 100 years with tapered and two diameter bullets such as the Ideal 319289 mold. The throat on the standard 32/40 starts at the front of the neck area of the chamber and tapers from there on through the rifling at 21.5 deg (the 30/30 tapers at 15 deg in the same way). There is also the Shuetzen chamber that tapers from the base of the case to the mouth w/o a neck at all. In that case the throat maybe almost anything as there is no standard for it but, as Ken says, it should not be 90 deg and I would guess that 30 deg would be the steepest angle for it.

A tapered bullet will BS fine with in that throat if it is .316-.317 on the first band and no larger that .321 on the base, a fairly standard design. I don't own a 319289 but, that two diameter bullet is approx. .315-.316 on the nose bands and .320-.321 on the two base bands and it has been used to BS the standard chamber for over 100 years.

With the above bullets and throats, you should be able to shoot 245's at times and groups under 2.5" if the fit is right. 

Frank
  

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Quarter_Bore
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Re: Non throated chamber
Reply #13 - May 20th, 2013 at 1:05pm
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Thanks for the kind words Frank. My only comment I would have is that I have repeatedly made 5 shot groups under 1.5"(often smaller)  200 yards with the standard .32-40 chamber and the bullets like you describe. I think my inability to read the wind is the only reason I have not shot any 250's recently.
  
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