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Re: Continous Variables & Discontinous Variables (Read 4917 times)

JackHughs Oldtimer Offline Posts: 657 Location: Riverbank Joined: Sep 27^th, 2008	Re: Continous Variables & Discontinous Variables May 11^th, 2013 at 7:00pm	Print Post
	The examples are reversed. Primers would be discontinuous (or discrete) variables - Winchester, Remington, Federal, CCI, etc. Powder charge would be a continuous variable. For example, AA 4100 can be varied in any measurable amount between selected upper and lower limits. JackHughs

	The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity. W.B. Yeats
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Cat_Whisperer Frequent Elocutionist Offline No 1, 9.3x74R Posts: 3877 Location: Mountains of Virginia Joined: Apr 17^th, 2004	Re: Continous Variables & Discontinous Variables Reply #1 - May 11^th, 2013 at 7:40pm	Print Post
	There is a lot that can be learned from a GOOD DOE (design of experiment). With the variables laid out you have a wide selection of statistical tools to play with - some much more powerful than others and with a rifle that you'll have for years and years there are some long-term studies that would be interesting.

	Cat Whisperer (trk) Chief of Smoke Pulaski Coehorn Works and Skunk Works Drafted May 1970, Retired Maj. U.S.Army assra #9885
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JackHughs Oldtimer Offline Posts: 657 Location: Riverbank Joined: Sep 27^th, 2008	Re: Continous Variables & Discontinous Variables Reply #2 - May 12^th, 2013 at 2:29am	Print Post
	boats wrote on May 11^th, 2013 at 9:19pm: Am falling back on 10,000 CCI Large Pistol I bought the last primer shortage. So they are a Continuous variable, going to use CCI Large Pistol in all loads because that's the only option Boats Hi Boats, A discontinuous variable, more commonly called a discrete variable, is one that cannot be changed in increments. Primers are discrete variables because primers cannot be changed in increments. A person can change from Remington to Winchester primers but cannot change from Remington to half Remington plus half Winchester. In your context, staying with one model of primer means that your are holding a discrete variable constant; you will use one model of primer exclusively. A continuous variable is one that can be changed in increments. Seating depth and powder charge are examples of continuous variables because each can be changed in increments. JackHughs

	The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity. W.B. Yeats
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joeb33050 Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2613 Location: Marathon, FL Joined: Apr 20^th, 2004	Re: Continous Variables & Discontinous Variables Reply #3 - May 12^th, 2013 at 5:22am	Print Post
	Is his for an offhand load? Are you going to describe what you're going to do here, before starting? That would be interesting. joe b.


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joeb33050 Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2613 Location: Marathon, FL Joined: Apr 20^th, 2004	Re: Continous Variables & Discontinous Variables Reply #4 - May 12^th, 2013 at 8:48am	Print Post
	If I understand, this is a 32-40 offhand rifle. I don't understand why you're talking about the variables. ANY 32-40 rifle will shoot a proper sized ~200 grain bullet with ~14.5 grains of IMR4227 and Remington 2 1/2 primers just great for offhand work. If the gun will shoot anyl load well. AND, I've tested thousands of shots trying to prove that the 2 1/2 primer is better than other primers; with no luck. Bob Fitzgerald shoots/tests offhand. If the shots go where he calls them, the load/gun is accurate. Maybe you're making this harder than it needs to be? joe b.


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JackHughs Oldtimer Offline Posts: 657 Location: Riverbank Joined: Sep 27^th, 2008	Re: Continous Variables & Discontinous Variables Reply #5 - May 12^th, 2013 at 10:35am	Print Post
	Hi Boats, Distinguishing between Continuous and Discontinuous (Discrete) variables is largely an academic exercise for the purposes of our sport and can distract from the actual purpose of load development. As to working up a load, you have it right; first identify all the variables you have control over, establish a baseline load, and then test by changing only one variable at a time. As good fortune would have it, the .32-40 has been tested every way possible for many more years than I've been alive so matching a rifle to a load is more of a tuning process than a full scientific test. I agree that the bullet is the most important variable. If the bullet is a bad fit to the rifling or is either too heavy or too light for the twist rate, no amount of fiddling with the other variables is going to make any difference at all. My personal "baseline" load for the .32-40 is: David Mos "Standard" 5-groove bullet .3225 on the baseband tapering to .3170 at base of the ogive Bullet cast in 1:20 alloy (pure lead and tin) Bullet seated such that the rifling engraves half of the baseband Winchester .32-40 cases with uniformed primer pockets 14.8 grains of AA 4100 Federal 210 GMM Primer Everything in the above list is a "variable." For proper testing, change only one variable at a time and observe the results. JackHughs

	The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity. W.B. Yeats
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joeb33050 Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2613 Location: Marathon, FL Joined: Apr 20^th, 2004	Re: Continous Variables & Discontinous Variables Reply #6 - May 12^th, 2013 at 11:09am	Print Post
	boats wrote on May 12^th, 2013 at 10:08am: Joe, Were did you get the "good enough idea for offhand". Boats Boats; Of the variables that influence scores in offhand matches, the two most important are shooter skill and shot luck. I don't know if luck or skill is most influential. With a gun/load that works well-not perfect but well-the skilled lucky shooter beats the others EVERY time. The skill contention is easily proved with two words: Jim Feren. The luck contention is easily proved by reviewing a lot of scores-or groups. Hence, my belief is that offhand shooting success is about learning HOW to shoot offhand, using a reasonably accurate load/gun, practice, not fiddling about in the reloading margins, careful selection of genes and trying real hard to be lucky. joe b.


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Cat_Whisperer Frequent Elocutionist Offline No 1, 9.3x74R Posts: 3877 Location: Mountains of Virginia Joined: Apr 17^th, 2004	Re: Continous Variables & Discontinous Variables Reply #7 - May 12^th, 2013 at 1:21pm	Print Post
	JackHughs wrote on May 12^th, 2013 at 10:35am: Hi Boats, ... As to working up a load, you have it right; first identify all the variables you have control over, establish a baseline load, and then test by changing only one variable at a time. ... JackHughs I generally agree, but there are more advanced techniques of statistics that allow us to change several variables and to ascribe the amount of variation they have to each one. Perhaps beyond the skills of most of us here.

	Cat Whisperer (trk) Chief of Smoke Pulaski Coehorn Works and Skunk Works Drafted May 1970, Retired Maj. U.S.Army assra #9885
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joeb33050 Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2613 Location: Marathon, FL Joined: Apr 20^th, 2004	Re: Continous Variables & Discontinous Variables Reply #8 - May 12^th, 2013 at 5:28pm	Print Post
	Isn't he dead? Bad luck? boats wrote on May 12^th, 2013 at 11:42am: Joe if you think luck wins matches think again "Luck is were preparation meets opportunity" Richard Petty Boats


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Cat_Whisperer Frequent Elocutionist Offline No 1, 9.3x74R Posts: 3877 Location: Mountains of Virginia Joined: Apr 17^th, 2004	Re: Continous Variables & Discontinous Variables Reply #9 - May 13^th, 2013 at 2:18pm	Print Post
	The 'luckiest' people I know are the hardest working people that I know!

	Cat Whisperer (trk) Chief of Smoke Pulaski Coehorn Works and Skunk Works Drafted May 1970, Retired Maj. U.S.Army assra #9885
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joeb33050 Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2613 Location: Marathon, FL Joined: Apr 20^th, 2004	Re: Continous Variables & Discontinous Variables Reply #10 - May 13^th, 2013 at 6:44pm	Print Post
	Boats; If you disagree with what I wrote, fine. You might want to read what I wrote. Outrage is very popular now, you're fashionable. If you disagree with something I didn't write, go right ahead. I never called hard work luck. Would you suggest that neither luck nor skill influences scores? joe b. boats wrote on May 13^th, 2013 at 3:40pm: Sorry guys I see red when hard work is called Luck Last post on the topic from me Boats


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