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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) .25 Krag progress (Read 17994 times)
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Re: .25 Krag progress
Reply #30 - May 31st, 2013 at 4:05pm
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Frank

WW brass re-formed & fire formed fired twice.

53.8 grs of water.

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Re: .25 Krag progress
Reply #31 - May 31st, 2013 at 9:06pm
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That's a nice looking rifle. Agree with your choice of lever. Prefer the std 'production' lever or your lever to the ball & spur.

Going to put on the 40-65 barrel and join us at Shippensburg this month? 60-shot match. You'll need to pre-register if you want to shoot.
  

Glenn - 2x CPA 44 1/2 w/22LR (Shilen ratchet-rifled & Bartlein 5R rifled), 38-40RH & 38-55WCF (Bartlein 5R rifled) & 40-65WCF (GrnMtn 'X') barrels
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Re: .25 Krag progress
Reply #32 - May 31st, 2013 at 10:47pm
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My new Winchester cases are 57.5 gr of delicious Oregon water Smiley

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Re: .25 Krag progress
Reply #33 - Jun 1st, 2013 at 4:22am
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So it's just a bit larger than my 25 Krag case.  On google somebody said the 250/3000 held 45 grs water.   Based on case capacity with the other high velocity 25's, Something is making this one run higher pressure and bet anything it's the tight case necks.

Pulled out a couple of the Precision shooting annual handbooks last night, some time ago they had one that was loose leaf intending to add data every year.

Lot on case necks. They say loose factory chamber fired can be as much as .004 more than sized and loaded.  Tight neck about .002 to .0015.  Too tight they claim causes accuracy problems and higher pressure. Going back to the .25 Krag roots Dr Mann simply necked down the .30 US and "reamed out the case neck"

I am going to take .001 off the outside see what happens.


SSS have not done anything with the 40/65 barrel yet.  40/65 is familiar territory don't expect any problems. Waiting for MVA to make some more Soule sights up, get the Krag barrel shooting properly first. 4 finger leaver does look good Ball and spur holds better offhand

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Re: .25 Krag progress
Reply #34 - Jun 1st, 2013 at 11:20am
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Bill,
I changed the case capacity of the 257 Roberts in  QL to your 53.8 gr of water and with the sierra 117 BT i get the following,

40.0 gr, H414,  46,300 PSI not CUP
   "        4350,  47,800 "
   "        H4350, 47,500
   "        AA4350, 46,900 
Velocitys ran 2900 to 2947 for all above with a 27.5 long barrel

For the FB 87 gr bullets, the pressures are within the above range using,

40.0 gr
RL15
Varget
4895
AA2520
Velocitys 3185 to 3230

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Re: .25 Krag progress
Reply #35 - Jun 1st, 2013 at 6:33pm
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Frank with your help, One at a Times data, and my old buddy Col Native who loaned me a tube mike today it's starting to come together.

117 Sierra B/T I thought the primer was too flat with a little pushing up around the firing pin indentation using 34 grs of H 414  Backed it down to 29 then 29.5 no pressure signs.  10 grs less than One at a Times 100 gr bullet data and 10 less than you get off quick load. I may have been able to go up a few more grains from 29.5, stopped cause something was not right.

Miked a few cases and bullets with the outside and tube mike just now

Fired case neck turned just enough to even up all the way down to the bottle neck.  O/D neck is .288 Dummy loaded case same at .288 this also with the neck lightly turned

Sierra bullet exactly .257  Case neck thickness on the fired case, which had been lightly turned .  .015 double it add the bullet comes up to .287 right about the same dim as the fired and loaded dummy.

Difference in loaded and fired @ .001 is probably not enough and reason for higher pressure.  I think I am going to take .001 off 3 cases should give me .285 loaded  .002 off 3 more should give me .283 loaded. 

Then load up with 29.5 of H 414 see how they measure after fired and more important how the firing pin indentation looks

Be mid next week before I can test at the range again. Catch me if you think I am on the wrong track.

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Re: .25 Krag progress
Reply #36 - Jun 2nd, 2013 at 3:38pm
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some years back, before Rem brrought out the 260 Rem as a factory rd I had a custom BLR rebarreled and chambered for the 6.5-.308 wildcat  (AKA 6.5 Redding---same chamber and reamer design Rem adopted for the 260 rem)   I was forming cases out of a mixed bag of  Mil and Civilian cases 308.   I had major case sticking and pressure problems with the mil cases.  I had to do a lot of neck turning to get reliable functioning.  there was a lot of variation in empty fired case weight with the military cases as well. Heavier cases showed more pressure/more sticking/flattened primers.  Thicker walls and less capacity I think.  MUCH more consistency with al of the civilian 308s even form different mfgs.
I was really thankfull when the factory round came up and really stocked up on it.   Still a favorite round and would love to find one of the Miroku lo 'walls chambered for it.
  

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Re: .25 Krag progress
Reply #37 - Jun 2nd, 2013 at 4:32pm
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Wayne,
The cases that I sold him are all commerial brass, made by Rem & Win. the head stamps are 30 US and 30 Army. I'm guessing that the standards were a little different for old ammo in the case head area for possibly both diameter and thickness.

Bill,
Go over this SAAMI drawing and check both the chamber sizes and the cartridge sizes against your fired cases. The important ones will be near the case head, as it is solid and just forward of it the thickest area of the case and less able to expand and contract.

It could also be that your chamber is a little on the small side.

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Re: .25 Krag progress
Reply #38 - Jun 2nd, 2013 at 5:09pm
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Thanks Frank, Will do and also have the drawings from the CH Reamer CPA used and the CH4D Sizing dies.

DWS To stay consistent have been working out of half a 100 round lot of new Factory WW brass. Only played with 2 of the older cases to see if they were different. Work those in when I get it all down pat. It's easy to take .0015 off just at the web half inch up from the rim, then they fit fine.

Been turning necks 2nd pass took them down .0015. Ending up with .0135 case neck thickness on 20 test cases. Here is a table of neck dims

4D reamer spec.  .2880 mouth 

Cerrosafe cast .287 mouth

CH4D case spec 
taken from several
fired cases in the chamber 
he used to cut the sizing die  .291-288

Boats case spec
taken from fired  .287

Boats new loaded 
Dummy case spec  .284

Boats pre turned 
loaded case spec  .287

Looks like my chamber is a bit tighter than CH4D's sizing die is cut for. Ought to cerrosafe the sizing die to confirm.

Loaded dummy chambers much easier than before. Am going to go ahead and do 20 at that dim. Then load up and test mid week. 

To make sure of everything re-calibrating my Harrell's measure table of charges and re-check my seating depth to make sure bullet is just off the lands

So far have no chronograph, save that for last step. For now will see how the point of impact works up the target from my recorded zero at 100 yards with the 29.5 load.  If all is working properly she ought to be able to at least reach 90 or 95 % of the quick load charge without primer pressure or extraction signs

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Re: .25 Krag progress
Reply #39 - Jun 2nd, 2013 at 9:09pm
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bill
Try a light film of STP on the case and lean on the press handle.
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Re: .25 Krag progress
Reply #40 - Jun 3rd, 2013 at 8:08am
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Screwloose good advice on the STP however using Franks SAAMI dims found what the Cartridge base issue is.

.200  up from the rim

SAAMI 30/40 Chamber   .4577
WW 30/40 new Brass     .452
WW 30/40 Brass formed .452
Rem-UMC New Brass      .456
R-UMC base turned        .454   

My chamber is tight. Not a problem as long as I get the fits right.  Wildcats are not factory and need special treatment. Only thing is it's not going to be a bench rest or competition rifle. All field use so need a little bit more clearance all around to provide reliable chambering & extraction. One reason for Wildcats is tinkering and it's a easy job to turn .002 off the Rem-UMC cases at the web. Part of the game

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Re: .25 Krag progress
Reply #41 - Jun 7th, 2013 at 2:35pm
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Back from the range with the .25 Krag.  Still puzzling me.  Turned necks .003 difference in fired vs loaded case neck ought to be releasing the bullet easy.

However still get pressure signs with lighter charges than Quick load or 250/3000 data.  Primers starting to show pressure with 32.5 grs of H 414 and a 117 gr bullet. Noticeably sticky extraction too.

Think I will put the 117's away work up with the 87's and either 2520 or Varget see if it shows the same trend.

Really need to chronograph to see whats going on.  Get some Base loads with the 87's then same with it's 40/65 barrel will set the chronograph up and check all for velocity.

May well be 117 bullets with 32.5 of H 414 are giving adequate velocity.  Difference in elevation 100 vs 200 does indicate velocity in the 2700-2800 fps range.

Keep you posted

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Re: .25 Krag progress
Reply #42 - Jun 7th, 2013 at 6:38pm
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Do you need my Pact crono???
  
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Re: .25 Krag progress
Reply #43 - Jun 7th, 2013 at 10:11pm
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Col I have a el cheapo Crony. But we ought to meet up mid week and run them through your good machine. Let me get the 87 gr 25's settled and the 440 gr 40/65 barrel rough zeroed.

I am running out of crank on the Unertl due to low blocks too. Zero at 200 with the 117's is 160, scope can go to 225 or 30 more minutes of angle, little bit over 165 bell hits the barrel.  Calling MVA Monday for some 3/8 inch rings.

Looks like this new CPA is Boats summer project. 

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