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Green_Frog
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Need to ID a German Martini
May 6th, 2013 at 1:54pm
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I am in the shop of a friend who has come into possession of an old Germanic-looking schuetzen rifle.  It is based on a mid-sized Martini action, has double set triggers, and is in a one piece stock of typical German or perhaps Swiss profile.  It has a quite pronounced dished cheekpiece and a hooked buttplate with the lower prong about normal length but the upper one truncated.  There is a matted rib on top of the barrel with what appears to be a platinum inlay saying "Emil V. Nordheim, Mehlis I/TH."  Font is fairly plain and is done in large and small capitals.  There are two inlaid rings of the same metal near the action face and the action is lightly scroll engraved with case colors.  The wood is fairly plain with just a little burl at the butt and near the fore end tip and just a little checkering.  A positive note is that the original tang, barrel rib, and front sights are all present along with the adjusting key.  I can't get a picture posted with this message, but will try to do so from home.

OK everybody, what have I got?  Biggi, are you out there listening?

Thanks in Advance,
Froggie
  
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feuerbixler
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Re: Need to ID a German Martini
Reply #1 - May 6th, 2013 at 2:33pm
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Hi Froggie, here I am!   Wink   Cheesy 

The Nordheim family was a big dynasty of gun-smiths and gun-makers and gun-part-manufacturers in Zella-Mehlis in Thuringia. That's the neighbor-town to Suhl, the most famous rifle-manufacturer town of the old days. Between 1870s and 1930s, there were more than 20 of the Nordheims (probably brothers, cousins, etc.)mentioned in gun business in Zella-Mehlis.

The most famous of the Nordheim family was "Emil von Nordheim", born in 1859 and died in 1938.

He manufactured primarily target rifles and also zimmerstutzens. Normally the zimmerstutzens were mostly manufactured in Munich or other Bavarian cities, but Nordheim also had advertisings for his zimmerstutzens in the Munich newspapers in the old days.

I have here an ad of 1906 for his fancy zimmerstutzens.

                 Biggi.   Smiley

Looking forward that you post pictures of the rifle!





  

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frnkeore
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Re: Need to ID a German Martini
Reply #2 - May 6th, 2013 at 3:17pm
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I don't mean to high jack this thread but, this is the first time that I've seen Nordheim come up in a thread.

I lived for 10 years in Yreka, California (20 mi South of the Oregon border) and there was a gunsmith that was in business there building rifles name George A. Nordheim. I believe that he started business by about 1860 and built many Muzzle loading rifles for sale, a friend collected them. I don't know if he built SS with his name on them but, I would think so. I believe he lived after the turn of the centry but, can't say for sure.

This is a 1885 directory listing for him.

Nordheim, George A. - gunsmith, dealer cigars & tobacco

Biggi, is he listed as any of the german gunsmiths?

Frank
  

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feuerbixler
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Re: Need to ID a German Martini
Reply #3 - May 6th, 2013 at 5:17pm
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Oh, I know Yreka. Nice gold rush museum there!

But I don't know George Nordheim. I have just some information about German gunsmiths, and there is no Yreka-George listed.
Sad

But I am pretty sure, this Yreka-George is also from the Zella-Mehlis dynasty!

                       Biggi.  Smiley
  

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Green_Frog
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Re: Need to ID a German Martini
Reply #4 - May 6th, 2013 at 6:28pm
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OK, I've gotten home and have downloaded some pix from my i-phone.  Hopefully I can get these uploaded to the sight.  Notice how "blonde" the wood looks.  Is it perhaps Birch or Beech?  Here's the first group;

  
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Green_Frog
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Re: Need to ID a German Martini
Reply #5 - May 6th, 2013 at 6:30pm
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That didn't work out very well... here's the first one;
  
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Green_Frog
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Re: Need to ID a German Martini
Reply #6 - May 6th, 2013 at 6:32pm
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And one more.  Sorry I still don't understand reducing pictures like I thought I did.  Embarrassed

Froggie
  
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Re: Need to ID a German Martini
Reply #7 - May 6th, 2013 at 7:10pm
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Frog, I've seen Kessler rifles that look a lot like this one, the one-piece stock was a trademark of Kessler's.   beautiful German rifle-wish it was mine.    ledball
  
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Re: Need to ID a German Martini
Reply #8 - May 7th, 2013 at 9:16am
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Frog, I love that barrel mounted rear sight, looks like it is adjustable for windage and elevation through a square key shaft. Nice.
  
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Re: Need to ID a German Martini
Reply #9 - May 7th, 2013 at 10:08am
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Froggie, do you have pics of the name engraving on the top of the barrel?

I am wondering that the rifle has still the barrel sight. So I think it was not stolen after WWII in Germany, because we didn't have the barrel sight with the V-notch – normally. Probably it came earlier to US and was used for long range shooting?

Any pics of the proof marks? Would help a lot to identify the age of the rifle.

My guess, it was manufactured before 1900.

                  Biggi.  Smiley
  

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Re: Need to ID a German Martini
Reply #10 - May 7th, 2013 at 10:51pm
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Neither birch nor beech. Best guess without a closer look is Juglans Regia, the walnut that grows from England to Turkey to China. The color, texture, and figure varies widely. Walnut fades with time and UV exposure to extremely blond shades. Even taking a sliver and sending it to a dendrology lab might not be conclusive. Sure is right pretty, wood and metal both.
  

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Re: Need to ID a German Martini
Reply #11 - May 7th, 2013 at 11:06pm
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feuerbixler wrote on May 7th, 2013 at 10:08am:

Froggie, do you have pics of the name engraving on the top of the barrel?

I am wondering that the rifle has still the barrel sight. So I think it was not stolen after WWII in Germany, because we didn't have the barrel sight with the V-notch – normally. Probably it came earlier to US and was used for long range shooting?

Any pics of the proof marks? Would help a lot to identify the age of the rifle.

My guess, it was manufactured before 1900.

                  Biggi.  Smiley


The rifle does have both the barrel sight (shown) and the tang sight, but what we noticed that the tang sight has had a replacement made for the spacer at the base, so it may indeed be one of the ones that came back with a GI after the war after all.  The front sight has the "wings" surrounding a pin and bead.  Here is the name and address marking from the top of the barrel, but unfortunately I didn't think about checking the proof marks.  Where should I expect to look?  BTW, please excuse the picture quality... I just had my i-Phone with me at the time of my visit.

Froggie
  
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Re: Need to ID a German Martini
Reply #12 - May 11th, 2013 at 11:28am
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Did that come through OK?  Sorry for the lack of sharpness, but it was taken with my i-Phone in a dimly lit shop, and close-ups don't do that well in that type of set-up.  Although it doesn't show up in the picture, this is a nice silvery color without any polishing, leading me to the suggestion that it may be a platinum inlay.  Ideas?

Froggie
  
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Re: Need to ID a German Martini
Reply #13 - May 21st, 2013 at 6:59pm
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Bump to top.  Does anyone have an idea as to the value?  It turns out that a customer of my friend wants to trade this rifle to him for some work on another rifle.  What should he allow in order to be fair to himself and his customer (and leave some wiggle room when he goes to sell it.)  Any suggestions will be appreciated.

Froggie
  
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Joe Do...
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Re: Need to ID a German Martini
Reply #14 - May 21st, 2013 at 9:45pm
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Bore condition and caliber will drive the final price. But the rifle has its sights and these are often missing.  The rifle overall looks good. My est range is $1,000 - 1,500. The Martinis bring slightly less money than the Aydt falling block type rifles. 
... My $0.02
... Joe D
  
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