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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) 1873 Maynard Long Range (Read 18422 times)
graduated peep
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Re: 1873 Maynard Long Range
Reply #15 - Apr 26th, 2013 at 9:03am
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Is anyone making this rack and pinion style rear sight ???
I think Romano makes the standard sliding model.
Looks like a job for ---- WATCHMAKER MAN  Cheesy
  
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creedmoormatch
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Re: 1873 Maynard Long Range
Reply #16 - Apr 26th, 2013 at 9:04am
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  Hello Harry:

Thank you for posting your addendum to your earlier post which shows the Hadley patent application drawing for the vernier tang sight which is raised and lowered via a rack and pinion gear and a finger knob. Correspondingly, I would like to add to my earlier post with the observation that the Maynard factory literature which describes the benefits and virtues of their "Maynard Improved Target Rifle, Number 16 ", states.  .  .  ."Mid Range Patent Vernier and Wind Gauge Sights." ; (See Single Shot Rifles by James J. Grant, 1947 @ page 290).

We are of course discussing the Maynard Model No. 16 Creedmoor long range rifle which originated as a adjunct to the No. 16.  Grant goes on to say at page 296, "More rare is the finer No. 16, with crotch walnut pistol grip stock, nickeled Swiss butt plate, and Maynard patent vernier elevating rear sight.

I find nothing in Grant's treatise which clarifies the configuration of the "Maynard Patent Vernier elevating rear sight" to which he refers.  Further investigation may well show that Doctor Maynard was either the owner or the assignee of the subject patent.  Other possibilities are certainly plausible, such as a subcontractor (i.e. Hadley) was manufacturing the sights and selling them to Maynard for installation on Maynard rifles in their factory.

I would greatly appreciate hearing from anyone with additional information, receiving corrections either to Mr. Grant's writings or mine, and any theories or speculations properly identified as such.

C.M.M.
  
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harry_eales
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Re: 1873 Maynard Long Range
Reply #17 - Apr 26th, 2013 at 10:29am
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Hello CMM,
It wasn't any trouble to search out the Patent Pictures, as they were in my computers memory anyway. I am rather surprised however to see that Dr. Maynard apparently chose to go with the Rack and Pinion method of sight adjustment as the only advantage I can see in using that sight is that rapid  adjustments can be made which are much quicker to do than those sights with screw elevation. There is no fine adjustment with the Rack and Pinion sight which perhaps could be adjusted to 0.01" or one hundredth of an inch. Whereas the screw adjusted vernier sights could be adjusted to 0.001" or one thousandth of an inch. The latter has to be far more accurate instrument. 

The differences between the Hadley Patent Drawings and the sight affixed to the rifle are noticeable by their absence, in other words, they appear to be identical.

Certainly the Rack and Pinion system has been is use since ancient times but I do not know of it's application to rifle sight adjustment before the date of Hadley's Patent. If Dr. Maynard had thought of it before Hadley I can see no reason why he couldn't have applied for a Patent himself. What I can't understand is why he should go to the lengths of building a good Long Range Rifle and then mount on it what was, in most respects, an inferior rear sight. Unless of course the rear sight was fitted at a later date, by someone else, which is entirely possible of course. Not having access to books or catalogues containing information of Maynard's Rifles it's difficult for me to say whether is was an original Maynard factory item.
Harry.
Edit, CMM, further to your later post, I cannot find any Patent relating to sights by Dr. Maynard. As you know searching the internet isn't always easy for a specific item and a slight change of wording can make a lot of difference. I don't have any of Grants Books on Single Shot Rifles but I would have thought that he would have given a reference to any Patents in a  References section.

Harry.
« Last Edit: Apr 26th, 2013 at 10:47am by »  
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graduated peep
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Re: 1873 Maynard Long Range
Reply #18 - Apr 26th, 2013 at 10:56am
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Regarding Hadley, keep in mind that Maynard also marketed his patented re-and de-capper.
  
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harry_eales
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Re: 1873 Maynard Long Range
Reply #19 - Apr 26th, 2013 at 11:37am
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Quote:
Regarding Hadley, keep in mind that Maynard also marketed his patented re-and de-capper.


Hello GP,

Do you have by any chance the Patent Numbers for the De and Re Capper. Thanks in anticipation.

Harry
  
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creedmoormatch
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Re: 1873 Maynard Long Range
Reply #20 - Apr 26th, 2013 at 11:52am
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Quote:
There is no fine adjustment with the Rack and Pinion sight which perhaps could be adjusted to 0.01" or one hundredth of an inch. Whereas the screw adjusted vernier sights could be adjusted to 0.001" or one thousandth of an inch.


Excellent point you make Harry.

One additional observation here.  The Creedmoor rifle pictured on the web site has the vernier rear sight mounted on the action upper tang, whereas Grant writes at page 296; quote " The only long-range Creedmoor Maynard I ever ran across was a 32 inch round barreled model in .44 caliber with straight grip, shot gun butt stock of the plainest variety walnut, no forearm or tip stock, and with Maynard mid-range height of vernier rear sight mounted on the heel of the stock."

Somewhat similar to the sample we have viewed above, but someone has wisely increased the sight radius of the rifle that Mr. Grant looked at.

Regards,
C.M.M.
.
« Last Edit: Apr 26th, 2013 at 12:00pm by »  
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creedmoormatch
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Re: 1873 Maynard Long Range
Reply #21 - Apr 26th, 2013 at 12:09pm
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Quote:
Regarding Hadley, keep in mind that Maynard also marketed his patented re-and de-capper.


Thanks Peep ---  Agreed, there was definitely some business relationship between the two men, Maynard and Hadley; which seems to point towards what Harry is saying.  That is, Hadley was first to achieve a U.S. Patent on the rack and pinion vernier rear sight and Maynard subsequently, either purchased the finished sights from Hadley, or alternatively, Maynard manufactured the sights upon permission from Hadley and paid Hadley for being able to do so.

If anyone has information on this issue, please come forward and help to establish this fact.

C.M.M.
  
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graduated peep
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Re: 1873 Maynard Long Range
Reply #22 - Apr 26th, 2013 at 12:18pm
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Harry, 
I will have to look through Grant's books as well as Gerald Kelver's works for the re/de-capper. I'm pretty sure I saw a patent drawing for it....somewhere.
On another point, I wonder if anyone has compared physical dimensions with the staffs of both the standard sliding peep sight and the Hadley patented style ?
It occurred to me that the Hadley system could have been applied to the standard staff as an upgrade ??
OR would the machined teeth weaken the standard staff requiring a heavier version ?
I ask because perhaps the modern replicas could be re worked to emulate the gear driven version.
Maybe someone's already done it ???
  
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creedmoormatch
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Re: 1873 Maynard Long Range
Reply #23 - Apr 26th, 2013 at 12:28pm
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Quote:


Do you have by any chance the Patent Numbers for the De and Re Capper. Thanks in anticipation.
Harry


Harry   The Hadley Capping/De-Capping tool is shown in Grant's 1st. S.S. Rifle book.  However, that volume does not cite a Patent Grant Number.  The patent was granted to Hadley 13 January 1885.  I do not believe that the tool was proprietary solely to Maynard cartridges, but I may not be correct on that issue.

C.M.M.
  
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harry_eales
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Re: 1873 Maynard Long Range
Reply #24 - Apr 26th, 2013 at 2:59pm
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Quote:
Quote:


Do you have by any chance the Patent Numbers for the De and Re Capper. Thanks in anticipation.
Harry


Harry   The Hadley Capping/De-Capping tool is shown in Grant's 1st. S.S. Rifle book.  However, that volume does not cite a Patent Grant Number.  The patent was granted to Hadley 13 January 1885.  I do not believe that the tool was proprietary solely to Maynard cartridges, but I may not be correct on that issue.

C.M.M.


Hello CMM and GP,

I honestly didn't intend to make waves here on this subject, but as a researcher myself I have found that it doesn't always pay to look at things 'head on'. Sometimes a lateral view can raise different questions and get different answers. I'll have to try and get the three volumes by Grant, but it will be next month, this months book allowance has already been spent  Cry

My own pet subject, as if I need to tell anyone, is the Sharps Rifle Companies Model 1878 Borchardt in all it's forms. As a one time engineer I have also studied it's manufacture and how various machining operations were accomplished. After 50 years I am still making new discoveries. The Internet has been a great boon to researchers, but you still have to check or test every tit bit of information to see if it is reliable and trustworthy, that's half of the fun in doing this work.

Again my apologies if I have inadvertently thrown a spanner in the works, but if it has helped in any way, then I am pleased.

Regards,

Harry
« Last Edit: Apr 26th, 2013 at 3:45pm by »  
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BP
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Re: 1873 Maynard Long Range
Reply #25 - Apr 26th, 2013 at 3:00pm
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Lest we forget, the Hadley rimfire device was also installed on Maynard rimfire rifles before Maynard chose to later offset the bores for rimfires. G W Hadley seems to have "initiated" a number of items associated with Maynard firearms. 

  

There are three kinds of men: The ones that learn by reading, the few who learn by observation, and the rest who have to pee on the electric fence and find out for themselves.
Proud Noodlehead
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graduated peep
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Re: 1873 Maynard Long Range
Reply #26 - Apr 26th, 2013 at 4:02pm
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Thanks, BP.
I had forgotten about his rimfire adapter.
  
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creedmoormatch
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Re: 1873 Maynard Long Range
Reply #27 - Apr 26th, 2013 at 6:37pm
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Quote:
Lest we forget, the Hadley rimfire device was also installed on Maynard rimfire rifles.  .  .



Thanks for the prompt, BP

Here is an image that shows the Hadley device which BP mentions in place with the barrel in the tilt position ready to accept the R.F. case.

Because of the Maynard large gap designed into the barrel breech end rearward to the standing breech, the R.F. cartridge would have way too much head space.  In a 1873 model Maynard, that designed in gap equalled approximately 1/8 inch.  Mr. Hadley answered that problem with the device shown here.

The same action will thus shoot C.F. (Maynard cased) ammunition once the Hadley device is thus removed or un-installed.

See;
    (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

C.M.M.
.
  
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creedmoormatch
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Re: 1873 Maynard Long Range
Reply #28 - Aug 12th, 2013 at 6:45pm
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   Maynards are on top.


   C.M.M.
  
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