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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) 1853 sharps help (Read 19363 times)
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Re: 1853 sharps help
Reply #15 - Apr 20th, 2013 at 10:08pm
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That's a path to the true story.  Guessing only Sellers does not give the detail, just the reference. Wonder if there is any way to access 156.1 Dec 4th 1859 on line.  It was 6 odd weeks after the raid and may have very interesting details on the firearms used. I will hack around on line see what turns up.

Sharps factory records would say who rifles were shipped to with a high degree of accuracy. Be interesting to know if Brown himself ordered rifles direct from Sharps.  I don't have much concern on that part, it's a pretty universal opinion Abolitionists were armed with rifles purchased from Sharps and Brown himself could well have ordered Carbines. It's passes the common sense test.

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John in PA
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Re: 1853 sharps help
Reply #16 - Apr 21st, 2013 at 8:35am
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Re: factory records.  Does Dr. Lebowski (sp?) have records from Robbins and Lawrence?  I believe the rifles in question were not made by the Sharps Rifle Co. (or the preceeding Sharps Rifle Manufacturing Co) but rather by the owner of Christian Sharps' patents, so "Sharps" records would not divulge any useful information.  Am I wrong on this?
  

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Re: 1853 sharps help
Reply #17 - Apr 21st, 2013 at 10:07am
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Hope I don't come off looking like beating a dead horse. I am just real interested in the history. Not interested in any rifles value. My CW Carbine collector friend outlined his opinion. For what it's worth.

Sharps made a lot of 1853 Carbines

Number of Firearms, Sharps included were sent by Northern Sympathisers to the border states. None sent to John Brown directly but he ended with a quantity. Shipments were disguised and it's not likely specific numbers can be accounted as shipped to Brown. Brown was a well known agitator and probably hid any purchases. Most likely he was armed with donated weapons.  He's pretty firm in his opinion the train robbery with numbers recorded never happened

When Brown traveled to Virginia to start a slave insurrection he had many weapons, all he could obtain, large number of pikes to be used untill he could obtain guns from the Arsenal. Rented a farm near Harpers ferry as a base of operations storing most of the weapons on the farm.

The attack was with a small number of men Some armed with Sharps Carbines one of which John Brown used killed a Marine. 

After the attack many weapons were taken as souvenirs. Government seized the rest and recorded the details in order to trace the source.  One report said there were 4 empty rifle cases in the barn. He said the government report is the basis of the "John Brown" Sharps legend. He's going to see if he can find the report which was entered in the Congressional Record.

So what's a John Brown Sharps.  Any Model 1853, Model 1853 Shipped to the border states. 1853 with number recorded as seized by the government after the attack. 1853 used By John Brown to murder a US Marine.

Path from many 1853's to only a few used in the Harper's Ferry attack to the one used to murder a US Marine is the reason CW collectors are wary of the "John Brown" Sharps legend

This all one persons opinion.

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Re: 1853 sharps help
Reply #18 - Apr 22nd, 2013 at 9:31am
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Good writeup, but do have some questions just to nitpick. Never seen it documented that John Brown fired the shot that killed the Marine, although it is certainly possible. Think the 1853 was originally a combustible cartridge gun. Don't think there would have been cartridge cases. It does say empty rifle cases.
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Re: 1853 sharps help
Reply #19 - Apr 22nd, 2013 at 7:11pm
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This is 2nd hand from that friend of mine, have not found the Congressional Record page yet. But by Cases he means rifle cases, boxes new guns were packed in,  John Brown Firing the shot that killed the Marine is another popular story. He was found guilty of treason, not murder, and hung.

Here is a quote out of Wiki that cast some doubt on Brown firing the fatal shot.

"Quicker than thought I brought my saber down with all my strength upon [Brown's] head. He was moving as the blow fell, and I suppose I did not strike him where I intended, for he received a deep saber cut in the back of the neck. He fell senseless on his side, then rolled over on his back. He had in his hand a short Sharpe's cavalry carbine. I think he had just fired as I reached Colonel Washington, for the Marine who followed me into the aperture made by the ladder received a bullet in the abdomen, from which he died in a few minutes. The shot might have been fired by someone else in the insurgent party, but I think it was from Brown. Instinctively as Brown fell I gave him a saber thrust in the left breast. The sword I carried was a light uniform weapon, and, either not having a point or striking something hard in Brown's accouterments, did not penetrate. The blade bent double."[17]

Going back to the serial numbers quantity of rifles pilfered for souvenirs and others seized with numbers recorded leaves all sorts of questions open on what numbers close to the documented rifles could have been. Did they leave Kansas as a lot or were they individual rifles from various sources

What seems to me the most accurate description of a "John Brown" is from the NRA firearms museum. they use the term "Attributed too" rather than definitive use.

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Still looking for that 1859 Congressional record on line, Wonder why it's so hard to find ?

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harry_eales
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Re: 1853 sharps help
Reply #20 - May 4th, 2013 at 2:21am
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John in PA wrote on Apr 21st, 2013 at 8:35am:
Re: factory records.  Does Dr. Lebowski (sp?) have records from Robbins and Lawrence?  I believe the rifles in question were not made by the Sharps Rifle Co. (or the preceeding Sharps Rifle Manufacturing Co) but rather by the owner of Christian Sharps' patents, so "Sharps" records would not divulge any useful information.  Am I wrong on this?


Hello John in PA,

Sorry but your post escaped my notice. Your correct Dr. Lobowski's records are apparently only for the New Sharps Rifle Co after the Company was reformed. 

However, the detailed production records for all models are itemised in great detail by Sellers in his book Sharps Firearms, so there has to be records somewhere. He makes references in the Bibliography to records of the Robbins & Lawrence Factory in  the Connecticut State Library. The library may still have these production records, or they could have just been on loan to the library. It would certainly be worth enquiring there. Other production records were consulted in private collections. It is 35 years since Sellers book was published and privately held documents may have changed ownership in the meantime.

Harry
« Last Edit: May 5th, 2013 at 2:48am by »  
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CanoeRoller
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Re: 1853 sharps help
Reply #21 - May 5th, 2013 at 6:22pm
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My Father ran a small gun shop, and did a fairly brisk business appraising antique firearms.  It never ceased to amaze me how may firearms were brought in to be appraised that had belonged to various celebrities.  Many had documentation to 'prove' ownership, yet the weapons were manufactured AFTER the death of said celebrity.

Attribution of a firearm to a specific person or event is extremely hard to prove.  Beware of newspaper articles that list serial numbers.  That is the sort of detail that is not noted by a reporter.  You do not see the serial numbers of weapons listed today in the news, and you did not see it then.

You might find it listed in court records, but you want to get your hands on the original court records, not a transcription  on the internet, which could have been easily altered.
  
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