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Old-Win
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Stevens/Pope Bore Dimensions
Apr 15th, 2013 at 12:42pm
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I have a high wall with a Stevens/Pope barrel and am having a booger of a time finding a bullet that will fit so it looks like a custom mould.  But my biggest problem is measuring bore and groove diameter.  The wide lands seem to have their own curvature to them and is not like what you would see in todays barrels.   When I rotate the bullet through the mic, it will vary from about .318" to .321".  I can't measure the bore diameter because the lands are so narrow that my caliper edge won't fit into them.  From what I can gather, is that the bore is about .316" because it starts engraving on the .317" band of a bullet. 
I've got the Mos mould and bullets from the Saeco Pope mould and the base band of both is around .322".  If I were to try and breech seat one of these, I think I would break the seater.  How hard is it to breech seat a properly fitting bullet?
Anybody out there with experience with this kind of rifling and have some recommendations?  Thanks
  
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frnkeore
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Re: Stevens/Pope Bore Dimensions
Reply #1 - Apr 15th, 2013 at 12:54pm
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On Pope rifling, the groove dia is the corners of rifling. If you have a even number of grooves (should be 8), the bullet should have flats on it when engraved and those flats should be approx. bore dia.

I don't have a drawing that i can post, hopefully some will have one. It's much easier to understand when it's drawn out. Oversimplified,you can think of it as a square with corners being the groove and the flats being bore dia.

A properly tapered bullet should be able to seat by hand but, with some effort, with a in line seater. Something like striking it with the palm of your hand 2 or 3 times.

Frank
  

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40_Rod
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Re: Stevens/Pope Bore Dimensions
Reply #2 - Apr 16th, 2013 at 8:51am
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I know that this is a shock to some but Pope's bullet molds ,or at least all that I have seen, have a pretty large base band. In the neighborhood of .324 - .325. Others may want to chime in here. 
When you breech seat the the bullets that you have and knock them out have they sealed at the base? If so I think you are fine. You don't say what you are using to breech seat. If you are using a push seater most people find them tiring. I would suggest that you get a hold of Russ Weber and have him make you a breech seater for the High Wall. He will need 2 fired cases when you send them make sure that the bullet will slide into the case. If not you will have to thin the neck a little and re fire form.

40 Rod
  
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Re: Stevens/Pope Bore Dimensions
Reply #3 - Apr 16th, 2013 at 5:22pm
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40 Rod, Ditto here. My favorite Pope .32 Cal mold throws a base band OD .3265-.327 diameter and it shoots best of the two I own. Also because of the Taper it has seated easily in all my 32-40 Rifles most of them unaltered factory chambers. Have not found one yet that it will not fit. When I can hold I get good calls. Of course that is happening less and less nowadays. I have had about a dozen Pope .32-40 Molds pass thru my hands and they have all been much like yours and mine and cast right in the 193 Gr. range with 25/1 lead/Tin. They all have shot well, but with a lot of tipping in a standard 1/16 twist barrel. But as long as they go to call I do not care how much they tip. It gives you a little extra opportunity to get the leaded edge to the higher scoring ring Smiley. HTH Regards, FITZ.
  

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whitey hanson
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Re: Stevens/Pope Bore Dimensions
Reply #4 - Apr 16th, 2013 at 7:44pm
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I had and loaned to a friend (now maybe lost) a like new Pope barrel for a HW. In 33x40 and a 33 cal mold. He said the same it was a tapered bullet. But on the HW he was building it was a awsum shooter. Whitey
  
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Old-Win
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Re: Stevens/Pope Bore Dimensions
Reply #5 - Apr 17th, 2013 at 9:36am
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Thanks for the help everybody including pm's.  I quit procrastinating yesterday and ordered a custom Pope style mold from Accurate Molds and based the dimensions on those sent to me by Fitz.  I have one other Accurate Mold and it was dead nuts for the dimensions I requested.  The only thing I did not request was the .326" base band.  I left it at .322" and if the bore doesn't seal, I may turn a tapered mandrel and lap it out a little.  I still have time to change that dimension if there is good reason to do so. Because of Pope's style of rifling, it was hard to get a fix on it but as far as I can tell, it is around .315" bore and .321" groove.  Hopefully, in a month or so, I'll have it shooting.
Wouldn't the .326" base band be contradictory to the idea of seating the bullet from the muzzle?  You'd think it would lead to some serious finning when breech seated?  Bob
« Last Edit: Apr 17th, 2013 at 9:44am by Old-Win »  
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40_Rod
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Re: Stevens/Pope Bore Dimensions
Reply #6 - Apr 17th, 2013 at 11:23am
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Strangely enough if you push a muzzle-loaded Pope bullet through the false muzzle and choke it pushes easily down the balance of the barrel. If you push one out it almost looks like a cup base.

40 Rod
  
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Re: Stevens/Pope Bore Dimensions
Reply #7 - Apr 17th, 2013 at 12:33pm
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If it helps any, here is a cutaway illustration of Pope rifling. For those not familiar with Pope rifling system, you can probably better understand the complexity of getting a bullet to properly fit the rifling.
  

Randy W
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Old-Win
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Re: Stevens/Pope Bore Dimensions
Reply #8 - Apr 18th, 2013 at 8:58am
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Thanks Crash,
I was looking for a diagram like that but didn't find any.  It shows why I had trouble measuring my barrel because it shows bore diameter as what we would think of as groove in a conventional barrel.  Bob
  
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Re: Stevens/Pope Bore Dimensions
Reply #9 - Apr 18th, 2013 at 10:07am
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If the groove diameter across the flats (not corners) is approximately equal to the bore diameter, what size bullet would be a good starting place?
Chuck
  
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Re: Stevens/Pope Bore Dimensions
Reply #10 - Apr 18th, 2013 at 11:25am
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Chuckster
Actually the groove diameter is quite a bit larger than bore diameter. A full groove diameter bullet, would be very difficult, maybe impossible to breech seat in a Pope barrel. Pope cut many of this moulds with a taper on the base band. I think (and I’m no expert in matters Pope) that base band flare is to seal the bore. To better illustrate my point, I attached a dimensioned bullet drawing. That flare on the base band would make no sense if the .323” diameter were full groove diameter.
Another point about Pope barrels - the bore and groove diameters were anything but standard. I had an opportunity recently to examine a whole bunch of bullets cast from Pope moulds and the 32 cal bullets ran from .319 to as much as .326 on the base band (exclusive of base band taper). There was a cluster of bullet diameters in the .321 to .322 range and the amount of base band taper on that group of bullets was as little as a couple of thousandths to over 6 thou.
According to Pope’s catalog, the bullet was supposed to expand to fully fill the bore upon firing. It’s a pet theory of mine, that he intended his rifles to be shot using duplex loads. That’s not a fact-based idea, it came to me over time as I learned more about his rifling system which included his duplex powder measure and the fact that a number of shooters I have known have had trouble getting their Popes to shoot consistently with straight smokeless powder.
  

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Re: Stevens/Pope Bore Dimensions
Reply #11 - Apr 18th, 2013 at 10:25pm
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Crash,
Thank you, Good answer, good information. Like that bullet. Flared base band is something I have not seen before. Would finning be a problem? Obvious Mr. Pope did not think so and would solve the gas cutting problem.
Chuck
  
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Re: Stevens/Pope Bore Dimensions
Reply #12 - Apr 19th, 2013 at 1:09am
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Chuck
Just my guess but I think the barrel for the bullet drawing I posted would have had a bore diameter of .312 and the groove diameter would have been about 2 thousandths less than the diameter of the flare on the bullet base (barrel groove approximately .324”). That is a guess however, since the specific rifle for that Pope bullet is unknown. If  I am correct about the bore and groove diameters, that bullet loaded with a duplex charge, would have bumped-up nicely to fill the barrel upon firing. It would probably work well with a straight smokeless charge also.
I have never had an opportunity to examine a Pope rifle that had the original mould still with it, to compare bore and groove diameters with bullets from its original mould. To further complicate matters, Pope bullets for muzzleloading had less taper from base band to wiper band than bullets intended to be breech seated.
There are lots of folks out there who know far more about Popes than I, so if some one is more knowledgable, please jump in and set me straight.
  

Randy W
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There are indeed two Americas. Simply put, it is not the haves and have nots. The two Americans are in reality divided into those who do and those who don't.
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Re: Stevens/Pope Bore Dimensions
Reply #13 - Apr 19th, 2013 at 8:51am
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I knew that I had seen is somewhere and it took me two days to remember where. On page 222 of Gerald Klever's book Respectfully Yours, H.M. Pope there are hand drawn Pope bullets and cartridges with dimensions. They  are for .32-40 and .33-47. The dimensions listed for the 32-40 are First second and third and fourth band .314", fifth band .317", sixth band .323. base band .327".
  For the .33 1,2,3,4 bands .328", band 5 .331", band 6 338" and base band .346" 
  The next page contains Stevens Chamber blueprints that Pope gave to Niedner for .22-15, .28-30, .25-20 SS, .32-40, .25-21 and .25-25. 

40 Rod
  
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Re: Stevens/Pope Bore Dimensions
Reply #14 - Apr 19th, 2013 at 8:24pm
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From the several .32 cal Pope molds that have had bullets cast and measured from them, it's obvious that they weren't cut from a cherry.  Each one is so different.  So were they lathe bored on a foot pedaled lathe?  Knowing from reading that Harry was a skilled craftsman, I wonder how accurate he could have been taking those inside bored measurements?
I once talked to Paul Jones, who I think is one of the best mold makers around, and he told me that when coming back in with the tool he uses too cut the nose shape that he can only be accurate to within a couple of thousandths.  I would think his lathe is a lot more solid than Harry's.  It would have been fun to watch Harry work.  Bob
  
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