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Mick B
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38/56 black powder load info required
Apr 12th, 2013 at 8:20pm
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Hi all, I'm new to loading black powder in this calibre and also new to using breech seated bullets. I have had a new one in fourteen twist Douglas barrel fitted to my CPA Stevens and I have also obtained a mould from Paul Jones and a breech seating tool. The loads I have tried so far have been disappointing so I have decided to seek help, rather than try to re invent the wheel.
The loads I have tried so far have all been a full case of powder topped with a wad to keep it in place. This amount of powder is in the range of 61 to 67 grs depending on the grade and the powder manufacturer. The only two powders available to me here in Australia are Wano and Swiss.
Any advice as to what I can try to improve my results would be greatly appreciated.
Mick B
  
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SSShooter
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Re: 38/56 black powder load info required
Reply #1 - Apr 13th, 2013 at 7:09pm
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This is the start of the 3rd season for me with the 38-56 and it has been a struggle up to now. If you send me an Australian $20 gold-piece I'll tell you all my secrets. Wink

First, I only shoot fixed ammo.
After many different bullet/load mixes have found two (2) bullets that are working well at longer distances. They are the 330gr Lyman and the 325gr BACo. Have done most of my shooting this year with the 325gr bullet and 56gr of 1.5F Swiss, using three wads (2x 0.060" & 1x 0.030" fiber) to get the bullet spaced out into the lands. Both Starline and Rem cases resized to 38-56. Rem LR primers and, essentially no compression. Drop-tube the powder, thumb in the first wad and seat onto the powder using a pencil and then the next two wads the same way. Thumb-seat the bullet. No compression to speak of and no neck tension. I do not touch the brass after it has been fire-formed. SPG lube.
My experience has been that more powder and compression leads to worse performance on the target, which is sort of the general rule for BP bottleneck cases. I've never tried more than 61gr as everything I've tried above 58gr has opened up the groups. 
At our mid-range match the end of last month this load, in a 32" long full octagon Green Mountain 14" twist barrel in a C. Sharps High Wall SST shot a 98-2x at 200yd, 78 at 300yd (after the dumbass shooter threw away two shots - a 5 & a miss) and an 84 at 600yd (where the same da shooter needs to learn a consistent hold). So, am optimistic that this load can be refined into something that is competitive. 

Can you post a pic of your bullet and tell us more about it (weight, length, diameter of the bands, etc.) and a pic of your chamber cast? Have you slugged the bore? If so, what are the results. 

Has been a bit of a trial to get to this point, but I was new to BP when I started, and have learned a great deal in the past couple of years. Both here and on the Shiloh Sharps forum, and especially from folks at the various competitions.
« Last Edit: Apr 13th, 2013 at 7:19pm by SSShooter »  

Glenn - 2x CPA 44 1/2 w/22LR (Shilen ratchet-rifled & Bartlein 5R rifled), 38-40RH & 38-55WCF (Bartlein 5R rifled) & 40-65WCF (GrnMtn 'X') barrels
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Mick B
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Re: 38/56 black powder load info required
Reply #2 - Apr 13th, 2013 at 8:06pm
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Thanks for that, my bullet is from a Paul Jones mould that he made for me after he received a barrel slug from CPA when they had finished the barrel. The bullet weighs between 325 and 335 gr depending on the alloy used, it is of a spitzer style, quite pointed. The first and second driving bands are .377" and the others are approximately .002 smaller. As so far I have been breech seating the bullet I worked out how much powder it took to fill the case within 1 16" of the top and then thumb seated a .060" LDPE wad on top. This procedure resulted in a powder charge of approximately 65 gr of Swiss 1 1/2 or 61 gr of Wano PP. My previous experience with bp cartridge rifles has been a Stevens 40/65, Stevens 45/70, Stevens 45/90 and a Browning 1885 High Wall. This has all been over the past five years. Prior to the cartridge rifles there were quite a number of flintlock M/L rifles, all made by myself, going back about 45 years. The new 38/56 Douglas barrel is presently in the 45/90. The Canberra black powder club do most of their cartridge rifle competitions at 100 mtrs so I figured why beat myself up with the bigger calibres when the 38/56 will do it cheaper, and be kinder to me as well.
I would also like to try shooting fixed ammo and if you could let me know the mould number of the BACO mould you are using I could possibly add it to my rapidly 
increasing mould collection.
Again thanks
Mike.
  
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Re: 38/56 black powder load info required
Reply #3 - Apr 13th, 2013 at 8:53pm
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Try loading 56gr of Swiss 1.5F and as many wads as it takes to leave no air-space between the top wad and the base of the bullet. Will get your recoil down some, as well. Based on the 98-2x at 200m, would think it would be as good at 100m. Normally only shoot pigs off-hand at 100m, so cannot say how well it would score at the distance. If I was going to shoot for score at 100m I would likely try a lighter bullet like the 300gr Hoch or Brooks. If you want to try them and some of the 325gr BACo bullets, cover the postage ($24USD) and I'll send you 10 of each.
  

Glenn - 2x CPA 44 1/2 w/22LR (Shilen ratchet-rifled & Bartlein 5R rifled), 38-40RH & 38-55WCF (Bartlein 5R rifled) & 40-65WCF (GrnMtn 'X') barrels
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Mick B
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Re: 38/56 black powder load info required
Reply #4 - Apr 14th, 2013 at 9:11am
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Thanks for the generous offer, I have loaded up some ammo for tomorrow with 54 gr of 3f Wano with a .060" LDPE wad, the bullet finger seated onto the wad. OAL of this load is 2.95", the bullet is just short of the rifling. Primers are CCI BR2, no compression on the powder hardly.
I will try this in the morning if the weather is OK and see if will do better than my last effort which was 1.7" at 100 mtrs. The BACO bullet may be worth a try as well as the Hoch. I just bought a Hoch mould for my .45, my collection is building up. What we need here is a mould library so you can borrow moulds till you find one that the rifle likes. Once you find the right mould then you can buy one, beats collecting.
I will be in touch after the testing tomorrow.
Regards
Mike.
  
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Re: 38/56 black powder load info required
Reply #5 - Apr 14th, 2013 at 10:56am
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Try 5-rounds with what you've got and 5 more with a second wad and then a third wad and see if you find any difference. I've not shot Wano, so do not know if it is closer to Swiss (which doesn't like compression) or Goex (which doesn't mind some compression). 
Definitely agree about a mould library.
Good luck with all.
  

Glenn - 2x CPA 44 1/2 w/22LR (Shilen ratchet-rifled & Bartlein 5R rifled), 38-40RH & 38-55WCF (Bartlein 5R rifled) & 40-65WCF (GrnMtn 'X') barrels
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Re: 38/56 black powder load info required
Reply #6 - Apr 15th, 2013 at 6:40am
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I tried 53 gr of 3f Wano and the group was about 1.125" wide by 3.5" high. I have another ten loaded for tomorrow with 5o gr of Wano 2f, five have 2 .060" LDPE wads and the other five have three wads. The rounds are now approximately 3.060" and 3.120" long. All groups are shot after two fouling shots. So far my best groups have been with the bullet breech seated slightly ahead of the case. I'm still wondering if it's OK to have any air space in the case when using breech seated bullets as I feel that a full case is more powder than is necessary.
Mike.
  
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Re: 38/56 black powder load info required
Reply #7 - Apr 15th, 2013 at 10:04am
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Mike are you wiping the bore between shots?  I'm quite new to breech seating with black powder, but my CPA rifle is very picky about bore condition.  For both .32-40 and .38-55 I wipe the bore with two damp patches between shots.  I've been following that up with two dry patches.   

Be really careful about lead accumulation.  In my rifles even a small amount of lead in the bore will throw shots well out of the group.  I find these smaller calibres far more picky about bore condition than my .45 calibre black powder rifles.

Chris.
  
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Re: 38/56 black powder load info required
Reply #8 - Apr 15th, 2013 at 10:43am
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As Chris mentions, for best accuracy, always wipe BP between shots (one wet & if have time, one dry). Definitely recommend your doing so.

Essentially, what I'm trying to do with the several wads is approach breech-seating dimensions. Get the bullet spaced into the lands as much as possible. With my chamber/load, am actually using the High Wall's 'camming' action to set the cartridge OAL that final bit when closing the action. Believe my CPA action does the same, but have much less experience with it.

Suggest you contact Gail at CPA and ask about any air-gap. Not sure if modern barrels are susceptible to 'ringing' with the air-gap like the older, softer barrel steels, but I avoid any air-gap just in case.
  

Glenn - 2x CPA 44 1/2 w/22LR (Shilen ratchet-rifled & Bartlein 5R rifled), 38-40RH & 38-55WCF (Bartlein 5R rifled) & 40-65WCF (GrnMtn 'X') barrels
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Re: 38/56 black powder load info required
Reply #9 - Apr 15th, 2013 at 7:13pm
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Hi again
I wipe between shots, two damp patches and one dry. I usually check the bore for lead using Birchwood Casey lead removing cloth, no problem there. I will continue to add wads till I feel that the bullet is being forced into the lands but I feel that then the bullet will also be increasing pressure on the powder column and possibly causing problems.
Mike
  
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Re: 38/56 black powder load info required
Reply #10 - Apr 15th, 2013 at 8:44pm
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Mick B,

With verticle spread of 3.5" you should consider more powder to reduce the verticle.

Also, you can try eliminating the dry patch and dry the chamber only.  I am assuming that you are using some oil & water concoction to wipe the bore.   

Something to think about.
MikeT
  
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Re: 38/56 black powder load info required
Reply #11 - Apr 16th, 2013 at 2:59am
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Thanks guys
Today I tried seating the bullet out an extra .060" by adding another .060" wad. I have kept the load light, only 50 gr of Wano 2f, The bullet weighs 320 gr cast in Lyman #2 alloy. I tried the load I used yesterday with the OAL at 3.060" and the group was about 2.5" high and 4.2" wide. The next five shots were with three .060" wads for an OAL of 3.135", this shot into 1.120", a big improvement.
I have just had a casting session and made another 50 bullets, half are the Lyman #2 alloy and the others are 20-1. I will try these tomorrow. By the way I'm wiping with a mixture of water and cutting oil 10-1.
Once again all help is greatly appreciated.
Mike.
  
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Re: 38/56 black powder load info required
Reply #12 - Apr 16th, 2013 at 6:35am
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Mick,

Did you get your cases in OZ, import them or reform 45/70. Looking for some my self.

Thanks
  
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Re: 38/56 black powder load info required
Reply #13 - Apr 16th, 2013 at 9:07am
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Hi Fazer
I have a pretty good stock of Starline 45/70 and 45/basic brass so that was the main reason I went with the 38/56 barrel instead, of say a 38/55. With the 38/56 I don't have to change extractors in my Stevens when I swap barrels. All of the brass I have was sourced from the US sometime in the past. So far, in five years, I have never had a case fail, no doubt having just said that I have put the kybosh on myself.
Mike.
  
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Re: 38/56 black powder load info required
Reply #14 - Apr 16th, 2013 at 12:03pm
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Just got back from the range. At 300yd using the same load with 2F Swiss was able to pitch 1-x & 4-10s from sticks, so it is a toss-up between it and 1.5F Swiss. Similar results when I moved back to 600yd. Will hold the 10-ring when I do what I'm supposed to do (always a big question) with this load in either 2F or 1.5F Swiss. Is a pretty forgiving load. I also tried the 330gr Lyman loaded the same way and it opened up to the 9-ring at 600yd. This was with a 6 o'clock wind of about 5mph, so pretty much a prefect day. Think it is all up to me now.

Like Mike, whether I use re-sized 40-65 Starline, or re-sized Rem or Win 45-70 brass, in four seasons (two rifles) I've had one Win case-head separate. 38-56 seems to be pretty gentle on the brass.
  

Glenn - 2x CPA 44 1/2 w/22LR (Shilen ratchet-rifled & Bartlein 5R rifled), 38-40RH & 38-55WCF (Bartlein 5R rifled) & 40-65WCF (GrnMtn 'X') barrels
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