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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) indexing cast bullets (Read 15051 times)
Walter  Matera
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Re: indexing cast bullets
Reply #15 - Apr 8th, 2013 at 8:28pm
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So a beginner is best advised to practice, practice, practice; get coaching from someone with a proven record and only then (if ever) start getting obsessive over his ammunition?
  
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Re: indexing cast bullets
Reply #16 - Apr 8th, 2013 at 8:45pm
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Watch a professional baseball pitcher, pull on his hat wind up, and throw exactly the same every time. That hat pull has less effect than the years of practice and natural talent, but he does it anyway. It's the same with indexing.

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JLouis
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Re: indexing cast bullets
Reply #17 - Apr 8th, 2013 at 9:55pm
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Doing things exactly the same each time is the name of our game. To become extremely competitive one needs to know how to shoot at least two different wind conditions, preferably three with total confidence. It took me several years to get where I am currently at, that being able to shoot six conditions plus the mirage with total confidence. This was critical back when CBA matches were the biggest game in our town and only having 10 minutes to shoot the score targets, 10 minutes for five shot groups and 15 minutes for 10 shot groups. Minus the breach seating and re&de capping time for each shot and that 10 and 15 minute time limit shrank dramatically and there wasn't much free time left to wait for a specific condition to return. ASSRA and ISSA time limits are very generous thus the comment on at least two preferably three totally confident conditions to shoot in. This is the most important factor when one speaks about practice, practice, practice.

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Re: indexing cast bullets
Reply #18 - Apr 9th, 2013 at 7:34am
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Spot on John,

Match rules make a big difference in how you handle wind.  BPCS with short relay time you often have to shade the target and let it go, no time to wait out the condition.    Offhand Schuetzen with the sighter target available and almost unlimited time to shoot no good reason to break a shot in unknown conditions.

If there is any doubt at all were the bullet will strike might as well put that one on the sighter. In fact my standard routine is to shoot several in the most adverse condition to see were they strike.  Not to "read' the condition but to reinforce the discipline not to shoot adverse.

Long way from indexing though. Apologies.

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Cat_Whisperer
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Re: indexing cast bullets
Reply #19 - Apr 9th, 2013 at 9:50am
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Back on indexing cast bullets.

Some of us shoot assembled rounds, someday breech seating.

SO, for those that assemble, do you index the case to the size die, the bullet to the case to the seater, and then the assembled round to the chamber?

  

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Re: indexing cast bullets
Reply #20 - Apr 9th, 2013 at 10:04am
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Cat the guy that shoots our Ram Bash matches indexed has notches cut on the top of his case rim matching up with a dimple on the bullets nose. it's always at the 12 o/c position when he loads.  Assume he uses the notch and dimple to do the same thing when loading the cartridge. 

He's a very successful long range shooter and long range these little tricks have much more effect than our 200 yard matches

Breach seating I look at the head stamp and insert the case same way every shot. Easy to do why not ? Fixed offhand 200 yard matches I don't index, but may start after some reflection.  Indexing will mess with the other shooters watching too, not a insignificant thing.

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JLouis
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Re: indexing cast bullets
Reply #21 - Apr 9th, 2013 at 10:56am
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I also place a notch on the case rim. I have also in experimentation rotated the case 1\4 turn per shot making a full circle and it formed groups in four different locations. This would be something for each individual to try to see if their results prove to be the same. I have not tried doing this with the bullet as I have always indexed but have told the results have been the same as rotating the case?
  

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Re: indexing cast bullets
Reply #22 - Apr 9th, 2013 at 11:21am
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Frank Marshall; he wrote many articles for the CBA, and all were the result of doing, not theory. He had an article on indexing bullets. In the article were targets showing that indexing bullets gave better groups. As has been stated, that alone is not going to make one a winner, but practice and being consistent. 
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Re: indexing cast bullets
Reply #23 - Apr 9th, 2013 at 12:41pm
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So true Bob.
  

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Re: indexing cast bullets
Reply #24 - Apr 9th, 2013 at 2:01pm
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When I moved from Muzzle Loaders to Cast Bullet Cartridge guns read everything Frank Marshall wrote. Always found his advice to be the very best.  Those days it was harder to expound on what was good, no Internet. Guys that were published knew what they were talking about 

Wish some of the old writers were still around

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Re: indexing cast bullets
Reply #25 - Apr 9th, 2013 at 3:50pm
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OK. So those who index on a mark on the case rim, just what do you use as the criteria to put this mark. Seems to me just lining the mark up with a letter doesn't mean a thing such as taking into account the thin side of the case. A letter on the rim doesn't indicate anything other than it's on a particular letter.

Pete
  
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Re: indexing cast bullets
Reply #26 - Apr 9th, 2013 at 4:11pm
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tenx wrote on Apr 9th, 2013 at 3:50pm:
OK. So those who index on a mark on the case rim, just what do you use as the criteria to put this mark. Seems to me just lining the mark up with a letter doesn't mean a thing such as taking into account the thin side of the case. A letter on the rim doesn't indicate anything other than it's on a particular letter.

Pete


Pete -
That's exactly why I asked the question as I did.

When I was shooting 7.62 Nato (M14) at 200/300/600 yards when I was on the 80th Div Large Bore Rifle team, I would measure the assembled rounds (issue and reloads) and draw a line with a sharpie at the high point (runout of the bullet).  They got loaded into the magazine with the line on the case up.

Lining up or indexing on each (or some) of the bullet making processes has the potential of producing a smaller error of coaxiality between the axis of the bullet and the axis of the bore.

Coaxiality is VERY difficult to measure directly, but runout is very easy to measure, and therefore is a realistic approximation.

Is there any measurable difference between indexing the bullet as cast (breech seated) compared to measuring the runout of the finished assembled bullet and indexing how it's loaded?

  

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Re: indexing cast bullets
Reply #27 - Apr 9th, 2013 at 5:46pm
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Cat,

Maybe I'm missing your point.... or maybe not. Smiley What I was looking for was that line you put on the case. Where was it in relation to the wall thickness? Just putting the mark in relation to the bullet does not put it in relation to the case wall thickness. As I get your explanation other things besides the case wall thickness are more important and wall thickness might not have a bearing on accuracy.

Pete
  
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Re: indexing cast bullets
Reply #28 - Apr 9th, 2013 at 6:21pm
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Pete -

Here's a blurry cell-phone pix of the run-out measurement.  Bullet (.375H&H) supported at base (last contact area with chamber) and in a cone supporting the nose of the bullet.

Dial indicator rubs on band just above the neck.  In this case the variation is about .008".  Being as it is runout, it includes ALL sources of variation:  axial misalignment, variation of supported ends AND varaition in both out-of-roundness of the bullet and neck wall thickness.

I draw the line on the side of the case to indicate one end of the range of variation.

With military match ammo, the FM I have specs .002 to .004 as 'match quality' and more variation for less than match quality.

Commercial jacketed ammo runs from .002 to .020" IN THE SAME BOX.  A casual reloader will do much better than that!

  

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Re: indexing cast bullets
Reply #29 - Apr 9th, 2013 at 6:38pm
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People that index case usually only shoot one case and reload that one case over and over. People that index there bullets with a punch mark, should always index the bullet in the same position, each shot.

If you load multiple case, forget about indexing the cases, there is no way of knowing (w/o extensive measuring) what differences are present in each case.

I'm kinda old school now, I guess. I still shoot one case. I mark it with a 3 corner file because, in the shade or cloudy weather, I have a hard time making out the lettering. I can see and feel a mark.

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