Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 Send TopicPrint
Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) That other barrel sweet spot (Read 5397 times)
bpjack
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 2842
Location: East Olympia, WA
Joined: May 18th, 2008
That other barrel sweet spot
Mar 25th, 2013 at 10:34pm
Print Post  
After having my Ballard re-barreled with a RKS 14 to 11.5 gain twist .321 32-49 barrel, I need to work on a new accurate load.  My first not so methodical tests have not been so good.  I have a new 200 gr Saeco mold on the way to add to my 165 to 185 gr bullets that I have been using.  My question is to which variable to start with.  Besides the bullet type and the usual wind, shooter technique etc. There is position of the barrel/forend on the front rest, seating depth and powder charge.  I have found barrel position 'sweet spots' over time for my .22 and 45-90 but was wondering which to start varying.  I have picked a seating depth for my existing bullets that just seals the barrel completely,  I could stick with a powder charge, say 14gr 4227 and try different rest positions until I find the 'best' group and then vary the powder and or seating depth from there.  OR I could pick a comfortable barrel position and vary the powder charge.  Any suggestions?

Thanks

Jack
  

ASSRA # 11318
just a bit of a hoot.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
40_Rod
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


Extremism in the persuit
of accuracy is not a
vice

Posts: 4285
Location: Knoxville, TN
Joined: Apr 20th, 2004
Re: That other barrel sweet spot
Reply #1 - Mar 26th, 2013 at 8:34am
Print Post  
There are 2 methods that work well. 
1. Clamp the action in a padded vice and lightly go up and down the the barrel tapping with a brass hammer. The barrel will ring when you get to a dead spot mark it with chalk. That's your spot.
2. If you have an octagon barrel lightly coat the top flat with talcum powder. Again lightly tap the barrel When you are done the powder will point at the Sweet spot.

40 Rd
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Schuetzendave
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


Retired Ex-Shooter

Posts: 4075
Location: St. Albert, Alberta
Joined: Jan 28th, 2005
Re: That other barrel sweet spot
Reply #2 - Mar 26th, 2013 at 10:15am
Print Post  
Step 1 Accuracy:

You first need to find the proper length bullet for your rifle. For a gain twist you use the tightest twist (11.5) in the Greenhills formula to determine the maximum length of bullet you want. 

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)


For accuracy shooting at 200 yards the heaviest spitzer bullet is the least affected by the wind.

For my 11.5 twist .321 bore rifle I shoot a Paul Jones 235 grain bullet that is 1.298" long.

The Greenhill's formula states the maximum length bullet I can use is 1.35" long. People shooting a 11.5 twist and .32 caliber are shooting bullets that are 220 to 240 grains in size.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Schuetzendave
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


Retired Ex-Shooter

Posts: 4075
Location: St. Albert, Alberta
Joined: Jan 28th, 2005
Re: That other barrel sweet spot
Reply #3 - Mar 26th, 2013 at 10:24am
Print Post  
Step 2 Accuracy:

To prevent gas cutting around your bullet you have to seat it so that the bullet base is fully sealed in the rifle's lead.

How do you determine what is the minimum depth to seat a bullet in the barrel?

Insert your bullet backwards with the base in first. Push it until it is snug against the lead. Put a pencil into the chamber to touch the tip of the bullet. Mark a line on the pencil at the end of the barrel. The length of the pencil in the barrel; plus the length of the bullet, is the minimum depth you need to seat your bullet with an adjustable bullet seater.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Schuetzendave
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


Retired Ex-Shooter

Posts: 4075
Location: St. Albert, Alberta
Joined: Jan 28th, 2005
Re: That other barrel sweet spot
Reply #4 - Mar 26th, 2013 at 10:33am
Print Post  
Step 3 Accuracy:

The barrel cannot have different vibrations from movement or touching of the forearm to the barrel. 

It is best to free float the barrel to prevent changes to barrel vibrations from occasional or different load pressures from touching by the stock.

Barrels that cannot be free floated should have the forearm bedded so it is always in the exact same position for contact to the barrel.

For testing of accurate loads always place the forearm in the exact same postion in the sandbags.
« Last Edit: Mar 26th, 2013 at 10:54am by Schuetzendave »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Schuetzendave
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


Retired Ex-Shooter

Posts: 4075
Location: St. Albert, Alberta
Joined: Jan 28th, 2005
Re: That other barrel sweet spot
Reply #5 - Mar 26th, 2013 at 10:38am
Print Post  
Step 4 Accuracy:

Map out the sweet spot sites by test firing  10 shot groups (for cast bullets) that are precisely weighed 0.1 grains apart.

Select sweet spot and shoot 30 shot groups +/- 0.1 grain loads plus your test load. Replicate 3 times to verify you have found a good sweet spot which will be indicated by the smallest group size.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Schuetzendave
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


Retired Ex-Shooter

Posts: 4075
Location: St. Albert, Alberta
Joined: Jan 28th, 2005
Re: That other barrel sweet spot
Reply #6 - Mar 26th, 2013 at 10:45am
Print Post  
Step 5 Accuracy:

Adjust your powder measure and fine tune your operating technique to ensure you obtain a powder load of exactly 0.1 grains. If your powder measure is throwing +/- 0.1 grain loads then it is not accurate enough. It has to be precisely throwing a load to 0.1 grains. If you go above or below by 0.1 grains the vibrations of your barrel changes and you will no longer be on the powder load sweet spot.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Schuetzendave
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


Retired Ex-Shooter

Posts: 4075
Location: St. Albert, Alberta
Joined: Jan 28th, 2005
Re: That other barrel sweet spot
Reply #7 - Mar 26th, 2013 at 10:49am
Print Post  
Step 6 Accuracy:

Once you have found the powder load sweet spot you can fine tune it further by adjusting the chamber air volume.

Shoot a 10 shot group, extend your bullet seater out by rotating the rod a 1/2 twist. Shoot another 10 shot group. Do this about four or five times. Return the rod to the position where you obtained the tightest group.
« Last Edit: Mar 26th, 2013 at 10:57am by Schuetzendave »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Schuetzendave
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


Retired Ex-Shooter

Posts: 4075
Location: St. Albert, Alberta
Joined: Jan 28th, 2005
Re: That other barrel sweet spot
Reply #8 - Mar 26th, 2013 at 11:02am
Print Post  
Step 7 Accuarcy:

Now you are able to test placing your barrel in a different position on your front rest or on your cross sticks to find out where it has minimal impact to barrel vibrations. i.e. 40 Rod method of identifying point of minimal impact
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
bpjack
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 2842
Location: East Olympia, WA
Joined: May 18th, 2008
Re: That other barrel sweet spot
Reply #9 - Mar 26th, 2013 at 9:07pm
Print Post  
Thanks 40_Rod and Dave.

I took a half day off of work and headed to the range after doing the ring test.  One of the 3 spots I found shot better than I had been able to before,  The 165 gr Saeco shot the best.  It is a cut down version of their 200 gr mold that Westerner shortened for me.  It managed a 7/8 " center to center 5 shot group at 100 yds.  Something to work with and shoot at the April Tacoma Spring match if I don't get the new mold to shoot in time.
  

ASSRA # 11318
just a bit of a hoot.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
40_Rod
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


Extremism in the persuit
of accuracy is not a
vice

Posts: 4285
Location: Knoxville, TN
Joined: Apr 20th, 2004
Re: That other barrel sweet spot
Reply #10 - Mar 27th, 2013 at 8:35am
Print Post  
Dave's methods are solid for determining the best starting place for accuracy. 
  I only disagree (Gently) with Dave on one point. The free floating of barrels. Given that the attachment point between barrel and action is the fulcrum point of the rifle where movement is most likely to happen. (See Pope's notes in Manns book.) The attachment point (receiver ring) on single shots is less than modern high power bench rest rifles and I know of no one who cuts 100% threads. Given this why would anyone just let the barrel wag out there in space. A barrel mounted as tightly as possible with a well bedded for end or better yet a well bedded one-piece stock to help shore up this weak spot is the way to go for accuracy.
40 Rod
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
frnkeore
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 7324
Location: Central Point, OR 97502
Joined: Jun 16th, 2010
Re: That other barrel sweet spot
Reply #11 - Mar 27th, 2013 at 12:33pm
Print Post  
The attachment point (receiver ring) on single shots is less than modern high power bench rest rifles and I know of no one who cuts 100% threads.

Can you please explain this in detail, as it makes no since to me.

#1
Thread engagement only matters in relationship to tensile strength. V threads always center themselves in the axis that they are cut.

#2
Barrel diameters can be the same on bolt action and SS's so, barrel stiffness can be the same in either case.

Are you saying that SS frames are weaker than bolt actions and that the junction of the barrel and frame can/does flex?

That said, it's extremely hard to actually free float a SS barrel, in that the scope is usually mounted entirely on the barrel in most cases. I can't remember ever seeing a SS with the scope mounted entirely on the frame of the action.

Frank
  

ASSRA Member #696, ISSA Member #339
Back to top
YIMAIM  
IP Logged
 
shovel80
Oldtimer
*****
Offline



Posts: 896
Location: Sonora,CA
Joined: Jun 6th, 2011
Re: That other barrel sweet spot
Reply #12 - Mar 27th, 2013 at 1:56pm
Print Post  
I believe the reason barrels are free floated when possible like on a bolt action rifle...is because when contacting the forearm area in a stock ....the pressure point will most likely change with the change in weather etc...When a barrel hangs free from the action on....I believe the barrel does what it needs to do more consistently....

Terry Smiley
  

ASSRA Member # 11021
Back to top
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1
Send TopicPrint