By no means are you included Pete, it was my hope those who's abilities we all admire would know of whom I speak. They read but seldom post and if they do it is a benefit to all.

J.Louis

tenx wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2013 at 9:07pm:


Ahem!  I've trapped 49 skunks over the last few years and have grown to respect their good nature and beauty.  I think that's a comparison that is unfair to the general skunk population!  JoeB will say over and over to the effect that "I'm right, you're wrong and read the book, I hope it helps."  Skunks on the other hand avoid conflict, rid your yard of grubs and yellowjackets AND don't spray unless cornered.   

We'll see how he handles the 'contest', you may be right.

ST
I'm looking at this as a milestone in lead bullet shooting, guys have been shooting cast bullets for well over 100 years and it seemed to take that long just to shoot a few record groups, from what I've been told by those that should know modern swaged rifle bullets have only been used in competition for around 5 years and already an "official" record has been  set, and from what I hear groups like the one Andy Z.  has shot is repeatable and have been shot many times in practice shoots. I believe it's only a short matter of time that more records will be set with this new bullet "invention", that's really been around for well over 100 years.

You need to go back and re-read history, swadged bullets were being used 100 years ago and they did not perform as well as the as cast. "Not A New Invention" Andy's record is not the bullet it's Andy, he knows how to read the wind, the mirage and how to get the most out of his equipment. In regards to only a few records being set with cast bullets in the last 100 years they  all were and it isn't just a few by a long shot and they continue to do so. To verify my comments just simply look at the ISSA, ASSRA, CBA and the various NRA records and the years they were set / exceeded the prior record. Those you named who are doing good with the swadged bullets are the same people who were dong good with as cast bullets and they could probably hold their own with bullets that are a little imperfect in not so friendly conditions. 

J.Louis

Man are you way out there when speaking on my behalf. If you think the swaged bullet is better for you then use it. When you say it is the best for everyone and the wave of the future, only time will tell. Harvey Donaldson, Dr. FW Mann and others found it not to be in their testing. If it was all you said it is I would be the first to use it. The one you speak of made its rounds here and is now gone. It was found to be no better than the as cast bullets they were using, some felt they were not as good. In regards to my scope, you can't hit what you can't see, I play to win, that's the intent of this sport and always has been as well as socializing with a great group of fellows who share the same interest. As I said Andy is one of the top shooters and one hard to beat and I think it is great that he is able to do so. I have no qualms with Andy's choice of bullet, its working for him. What I do have qualms with is your statement as it being the wonder bullet and the wave of the future. That is not doing the new fellows who are trying to learn this game any justice and at 55 cents each with no proven gain, just your hear say there alot out there that can't afford them. In regards to the ASSRA records I have copies of all of the 100yd group records as they were being set and again far from being a few. Some of those events longer exist thus the reason for not seeing any improvements. 10-5 shot groups, a 50 shot event that averaged .449 (1974) is more than fair shooting as is the 5-5shot group, a 25 shot event that averaged .276 ( 1976 ) and then there is the 5 shot group (1985) of .177 all with as cast bullets. I am not sure of what Andy's group measured but I would assume it surpassed the last one I mentioned? In regards to swaged bullets being better today than in days gone by you are just blowing smoke, a match quality swaged bullet is a match quality swaged bullet no matter who made it back in the day they were made by the best and were not second rate as you assume

I know of a few shooters who have tried these swaged bullets side by side. They said that they shot well but not demonstrabutly better than their match grade cast bullets. The bullets are a little spendy and if you are a serious shooter who shoots a hundred or more a week in practise it adds up pretty quick. 
  The other thing that bothers me about these bullets is the knurling. As near as I can tell this is put on after the bullets are swaged. This , for me, is the source of potential variation. As I have stated before anything that you do to a well cast bullet after dropping it from the mold simply deforms the bullet. In the case of the swaged bullet after it drops from the swage it is as perfect as it can be made. then you roll knurling on to it and in the process deform it. You can't possibly knurl them identical every time.
40 Rod

I might be wrong as it might have changed, when the fellows out my way gave them a try they could only be had in 30-1. At least that is what they told me. I posed the question on the conversation being held over in the for sale section but did not get a reply.

40_Rod brought up some good points of which I totally agree with. There is allot that goes into making a good match quality bullet. Balance being the key and then flight efficiency.

We also have to keep in mind per Mann's tests as well as others that 1 in 5 shots includes an out shot. To minimize the severity of that out shot is what we have to work with to achieve extreme accuracy.

J.Louis

That will work MACCA.  Can you do it again?   This seems to be the question


Question, are swagged bullets 'harder', 'denser', and thus heavier when made from the same alloy?  What affects if any will this have?

Cary

Hello, and very interesting subject!  I think the hardness of a swaged bullet using same alloy as cast would be less..as lead alloys work soften.
   I see alot of posts refering to knurling after swaging for lube carrying ability.  Back in the early 1990's, there was an article ..can't remember if it was the Journal or the CBA'S Fouling Shot on swaging G.G. bullets.  A two piece die with grease grooves incorporated was forced lateraly onto lead slug.  Die had to be forced apart with wedge shaped roller device.
   Wern't the early German Schuetzen factory bullets swaged grease groove type?