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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) effect of twist rate on wind stability (Read 18441 times)
Irascible
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effect of twist rate on wind stability
Oct 28th, 2012 at 2:05pm
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Given a bullet with the same length and weight, would the twist have any effect on the bullets stability or drift in the wind?
  
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creedmoormatch
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Re: effect of twist rate on wind stability
Reply #1 - Oct 28th, 2012 at 6:33pm
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  Hello Irascribe

   Great question !  I believe it would be important for you to know that information for your shooting success, but also, I believe that you would benefit from knowing the reasoning and principals which supports the answer.

  There is no better resource for you to consult than the publication written by Robert A. Rinker titled Understanding Firearm Ballistics which is a 426 page paperback selling at approx. $25.00.

  Might I suggest that you purchase or borrow a copy and you will have the tools and be in a position to answer your question yourself, plus a whole host of other relevant questions pertaining to what we do here.

P.M. sent.

Improved shooting,

CMM

,
  
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JLouis
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Re: effect of twist rate on wind stability
Reply #2 - Oct 28th, 2012 at 6:53pm
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Absolutely due to several factors but I will just bring up two of those for now.
1. The bullet could be under stabilized.
2. The bullet could be over stabilized.
With both examples being on the ragged edge of stability a puff of wind could / would push them over that ragged edge.

J.Louis
  

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Dr Tom
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Re: effect of twist rate on wind stability
Reply #3 - Oct 28th, 2012 at 9:45pm
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Check out ""Magnus Effect" 
(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
It looks to me like there is a significant aerodynamic effect in addition to the gyro stability.

Dr Tom
  
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JLouis
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Re: effect of twist rate on wind stability
Reply #4 - Oct 28th, 2012 at 10:09pm
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Doc T there is so much about the bullets flight it becomes mind boggling, Dr Mann has pretty shown that to us. Little things like the locations of center of gravity and center of pressure being move just a tad one way or the other and it's a whole new ball game again. Having slightly nose up or nose down attitudes during flight with the bullet yawing around its center of mass along with some of the other little things also taken place prior to and post the bullet going to sleep makes one wonder, it does me anyway how it becomes possible to continue to get it into that 1 1 1/2 ring time after time in calm conditions. Then add the wind to the whole picture either blowing over the top of it as its spinning towards the target or under it and that self wonder is greatly magnified.

J.Louis
  

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JackHughs
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Re: effect of twist rate on wind stability
Reply #5 - Oct 28th, 2012 at 10:13pm
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Irascible wrote on Oct 28th, 2012 at 2:05pm:
Given a bullet with the same length and weight, would the twist have any effect on the bullets stability or drift in the wind?


The answer to your first question is easy; the answer to the second is not - at least for me it's not.

For a given bullet, the twist rate determines whether or not the bullet is under stabilized, properly stabilized, or over stabilized.  If the twist rate is too slow, the bullet will be under stabilized and accuracy, particularly at longer ranges, will suffer.  If the twist rate is too fast, the bullet will be over stabilized and accuracy will suffer.

Now, will an under or over stabilized bullet will be deflected by a constant wind to a greater extent than a properly stabilized bullet?  I don't know for certain but I think so.

For years, I shot 211 grain, .32 caliber bullets in 1/16 twist barrels. These bullets were on the ragged edge of stability and they did seem to deflect a great deal.  When I shot the same bullets in a 1/14 twist barrel, they did not seem to deflect so much. 

JackHughs 

  

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JLouis
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Re: effect of twist rate on wind stability
Reply #6 - Oct 28th, 2012 at 10:25pm
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I also have to add that if you have not had the opportunity to sit behind a competitor at his bench and watched his bullet fly down range to the 200yd. target you are missing a unique experience. That bullet make a great big cork screw rotation and then drops into the target. It by no means is even close to taking a straight flight path to the target and it is a real amazing and eye opening site to behold.

J.Louis
« Last Edit: Oct 28th, 2012 at 11:16pm by JLouis »  

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Dr Tom
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Re: effect of twist rate on wind stability
Reply #7 - Oct 28th, 2012 at 10:51pm
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This really is an amazing and complicated subject! I recall the day that Dr. Mann's book was reprinted in affordable paperback. My father immediately ordered copies for himself and each of his appreciative (and fully grown) sons. I'm sitting within 10 ft of my copy right now. I wish I understood all of it, but with today's low cost of chronographs and the availability of really good barrels and bullet molds, I'm learning more and more. 

Dr Tom
  
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JLouis
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Re: effect of twist rate on wind stability
Reply #8 - Oct 29th, 2012 at 12:02am
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Dr Tom you will learn more than you could ever have dreamed of, not by reading books but by spending countless hours behind your rifle. If you are like me you will never leave the range without having something to try before you even get off of the property. This has held true for me going on 14 years now. You will be amazed at what will find when thinking, trying and doing things out of the box. There are still a tremendous amount of unknowns and things out there yet to be tried and definitely more than one could ever accomplish in one lifetime. At times it seems as if when those experimenters, innovators and great competitors passed on time came to a sudden stand still. They lead the way with new means and methods to improve accuracy and no has picked up where they left off to carry on. Instead they do as they did and nothing improves. It has been my passion to keep going where those greats left off in hopes of being able give yet more to bring others to a higher level with a new ability for them to improve their scores.

J.Louis
  

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Dr Tom
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Re: effect of twist rate on wind stability
Reply #9 - Oct 29th, 2012 at 12:31am
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Amen, Sir!
  
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joeb33050
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Re: effect of twist rate on wind stability
Reply #10 - Oct 29th, 2012 at 8:19am
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Irascible wrote on Oct 28th, 2012 at 2:05pm:
Given a bullet with the same length and weight, would the twist have any effect on the bullets stability or drift in the wind?

Let velocity, caliber and bullet length remain constant
Bullet stability is not affected by the wind.
Therefore, bullet stability is not affected by the wind at any twist.
Wind drift is not affected by twist.
(Magnus forces etc. affect stability, hence rifled bores.The object of rifling is to get and keep the center of pressure behind the center of gravity.)
joe b.
  
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Re: effect of twist rate on wind stability
Reply #11 - Oct 29th, 2012 at 8:54am
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JLouis wrote on Oct 29th, 2012 at 12:02am:
Dr Tom you will learn more than you could ever have dreamed of, not by reading books but by spending countless hours behind your rifle. If you are like me you will never leave the range without having something to try before you even get off of the property. This has held true for me going on 14 years now. You will be amazed at what will find when thinking, trying and doing things out of the box. There are still a tremendous amount of unknowns and things out there yet to be tried and definitely more than one could ever accomplish in one lifetime. At times it seems as if when those experimenters, innovators and great competitors passed on time came to a sudden stand still. They lead the way with new means and methods to improve accuracy and no has picked up where they left off to carry on. Instead they do as they did and nothing improves. It has been my passion to keep going where those greats left off in hopes of being able give yet more to bring others to a higher level with a new ability for them to improve their scores.

J.Louis

Well said Mr. Louis I wish more people felt as you do. I would like to add a bit of something that I have experienced in the past year. I have been shooting a Douglas 14" twist with a Barnett bullet that measures 1.18" long and weights 225 grains cast from 20:1 mix. This bullet is marginally stable in my rifle until I get up to around 15 grains of 300 MP don't know the velocity, I'm going by the bullet holes in the 200 yard target. Twice in the last year shooting in very windy conditions I have actually witnessed bullet fluttering in the air. Both times the wind was coming in from the 3:00 position probably 20mph + with sharp gusts mixed in with the steady wind. I don't know if it is mainly the effect of a marginally stable bullet, a bad bullet, just bad luck (both times during a match) of course. But I do have a new Paul Jones bullet to try out.

Richard
  
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JLouis
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Re: effect of twist rate on wind stability
Reply #12 - Oct 29th, 2012 at 11:40am
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"Let velocity, caliber and bullet length remain constant Bullet stability is not affected by the wind."

That is hard to grasp. I don't know how many have been headed down the highway at 70 miles an hour in a vehicle say 10ft long, 5ft. wide with a moderate to stiff wind coming out of 3 o'clock that did not experience instability. To look at it yet in another aspect, spin a top and apply a moderate to stiff wind from 3 o'clock and then watch to see if it starts to loose it's stability.

J.Louis
  

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deadwooddick
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Re: effect of twist rate on wind stability
Reply #13 - Oct 29th, 2012 at 12:23pm
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JLouis wrote on Oct 29th, 2012 at 11:40am:
"Let velocity, caliber and bullet length remain constant Bullet stability is not affected by the wind."

That is hard to grasp. I don't know how many have been headed down the highway at 70 miles an hour in a vehicle say 10ft long, 5ft. wide with a moderate to stiff wind coming out of 3 o'clock that did not experience instability. To look at it yet in another aspect, spin a top and apply a moderate to stiff wind from 3 o'clock and then watch to see if it starts to loose it's stability.

J.Louis


What effect, as applied to a bullet, causes it to be unstable ?

Is it twist ? In some cases, yes.

Is it weight ? In some cases, depending on twist, yes.

Is it diameter ? Depending on twist AND weight, yes. 

Is a bullet made unstable by a wind blowing on it. No.

The wind blowing on the bullet will alter WHERE IT HITS. Blowing a bullet off the desired POA is not instability.

RE: the car, is "unstable" because, if the wind blows in a certain direction and the driver corrects but if the wind velocity drops off, (requiring another correction) means the car can travel in a serpentine fashion… as a consequence of DRIVER INPUT. That is not instability (loss of stability). 

DTO, the spinning top, as long at the top maintains it's rotational speed, a 3 o'clock wind will only displace it sideways, not cause it to begin wobbling. Such wobbling is caused by a loss of it's rotational speed, e.g. it's slowing down and so becoming unstable.

Analogies… and certainly I could be wrong. 

« Last Edit: Oct 29th, 2012 at 12:39pm by deadwooddick »  
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JLouis
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Re: effect of twist rate on wind stability
Reply #14 - Oct 29th, 2012 at 12:58pm
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"Analogies… and certainly I could be wrong." 

That certainly holds true for me as well and a very interesting conversation none the less. If the car was heading into a strong head wind and the top was also doing the same, spinning into a strong head wind would anything change in regards to altering the stability.

J.Louis
  

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