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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Brand new at this! (Read 10254 times)
Plain Old Bill
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Brand new at this!
Oct 26th, 2012 at 8:15pm
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Recently bought a 1936 Model 52 at auction; soon learned that it had a Harry Pope barrel. I'm certainly looking into restoring...just how rare or valuable is this? Thanks in advance for your help, and putting up with a newbie!
  
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JLouis
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Re: Brand new at this!
Reply #1 - Oct 26th, 2012 at 8:39pm
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Might not want to do the restore thing to anything with a Pope barrel on it. You definitely have a very unique rifle in your hands. Is your barrel marked Pope or is it just hearsay. Have you taken the stock off and looked for anything under the barrel, Pope numbered all of his barrels. If it is indeed a Pope barrel I am not sure what it would be worth. I believe Harry passed on about 1951 so not sure if he would have been the one to barrel the action. It could be a take off barrel, but it could be allot of things. Tell us all that you know about the rifle that would be extremely helpful as well as maybe a few pictures.

J.Louis
  

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JLouis
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Re: Brand new at this!
Reply #2 - Oct 26th, 2012 at 8:41pm
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Now the Steven's Model 52 makes allot of sence. 

J.Louis
  

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creedmoormatch
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Re: Brand new at this!
Reply #3 - Oct 27th, 2012 at 8:50am
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Quote:
Recently bought a 1936 Model 52 at auction; soon learned that it had a Harry Pope barrel. I'm certainly looking into restoring...just how rare or valuable is this?


  Hello Bill --

   Congratulations on your new find and your very good fortune to discover the Harry M. Pope barrel.  You probably know that Mr. Pope was hired by the J. Stevens Company in the Spring of 1901 under a five year contract.  However, his employment did not last the full five years and he returned to the private practice of gunsmithing/barrelmaking.

For the expert J. Stevens information and assistance that you are seeking, and that your new acquisition would warrant, might I suggest you rely upon a very well educated and knowledgeable man with an impeccable reputation for knowing J. Stevens rifles and their appendages. 

My referral is to Mr. Paul Shuttleworth, who is one of the principals of the CPA Rifle Company.  Mr. Shuttleworth may be reached by telephone at his office 570-828-1669 or by FAX at 570-828-8333.

If I may be of further assistance on J. Stevens rifles or company history, please let me know.

Creedmoormatch

.
   
« Last Edit: Oct 28th, 2012 at 8:36am by »  
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marlinguy
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Re: Brand new at this!
Reply #4 - Oct 27th, 2012 at 3:31pm
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I would agree with J Louis. I would not restore a Pope gun, unless condition was very poor, and even then I'm not sure. 
Sure would be nice to see pictures of the gun in question!
  

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Plain Old Bill
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Re: Brand new at this!
Reply #5 - Oct 28th, 2012 at 10:34pm
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Thanks, guys, for your help. The barrel is lettered on the top "H M POPE" - the bottom of the barrel flat near the receiver has some mysterious numerical markings....from what I can tell from researching pics on the net, these may be markings that indicate Pope's machine settings. 
I'd be happy to send pics - this is a Winchester Model 52A (I'm told, again, I'm relying on a gentleman I know who collects .22 caliber target rifles) made in 1936. It is ensconced in what can only be a target stock (it's about half a walnut tree) with removable comb so one can take out the bolt. The barrel has mounts that would make sense for a Unertl or Lyman scope or sight. Sorry, didn't know there was such a thing as a Stevens Model 52! Just shows you how little I know...my expertise, what little I have, is military surplus.
I'd be happy to send pics to any one of you who send an email address to me at kennedyb.kennedy@gmail.com for reference- I'm not very successful at posting them and both my techno-savvy sons have recently been relocated by the military branches they serve- one to Kuwait, one to somewhere in the gulf of mexico. 
Again, thanks for your help. 
  
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JLouis
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Re: Brand new at this!
Reply #6 - Oct 28th, 2012 at 11:05pm
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Wow sounds like you might have a real treasure depending on who did the work. If Harry did the work it could be considered priceless by some. The barrel alone is highly desirable and would carry a good price. This is about as far as I can go with it as I don't have the expertise to go any further. Harry also consecutively numbered his barrels from what I understand and that could be wrong. One of those numbers under the barrel you are referring too would be the barrel number. Fitz is very knowledgeable about Pope and his barrels and might be of some help so I hope he see's this post and responds.

J.Louis
  

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H. M. Pope
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Re: Brand new at this!
Reply #7 - Oct 29th, 2012 at 11:17am
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Quote:
Thanks, guys, for your help. The barrel is lettered on the top "H M POPE" - the bottom of the barrel flat near the receiver has some mysterious numerical markings....from what I can tell from researching pics on the net, these may be markings that indicate Pope's machine settings. 
I'd be happy to send pics - this is a Winchester Model 52A (I'm told, again, I'm relying on a gentleman I know who collects .22 caliber target rifles) made in 1936. It is ensconced in what can only be a target stock (it's about half a walnut tree) with removable comb so one can take out the bolt. The barrel has mounts that would make sense for a Unertl or Lyman scope or sight. Sorry, didn't know there was such a thing as a Stevens Model 52! Just shows you how little I know...my expertise, what little I have, is military surplus.
I'd be happy to send pics to any one of you who send an email address to me at kennedyb.kennedy@gmail.com for reference- I'm not very successful at posting them and both my techno-savvy sons have recently been relocated by the military branches they serve- one to Kuwait, one to somewhere in the gulf of mexico. 
Again, thanks for your help. 


Hi Plain Old Bill,
You say that your barrel is marked H M POPE on top, the one I have is marked H. M. POPE 

I notice that yous does not have the periods after the H and the M, was it just a typo on your part or does it look like mine.
  Regards
    H. M. Pope
« Last Edit: Oct 29th, 2012 at 12:02pm by »  
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marlinguy
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Re: Brand new at this!
Reply #8 - Oct 29th, 2012 at 11:54am
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Hard to imagine improving on the factory Win 52 barrel, even as great as Pope was. But I'd guess with the 1936 date your 52a could have had a sporter weight barrel, and someone wanted a serious target competition rifle. What a great find in a Pope barreled gun!
The old customized Win 52's were neat guns, and heavy by today's standards, but still highly desireable for many shooters and collectors! I have a late 52b from just after WWII and it has both factory stock, and a Roberts competition stock on it. Love shooting mine!
  

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Plain Old Bill
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Re: Brand new at this!
Reply #9 - Oct 29th, 2012 at 1:59pm
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H.M. POPE-  on top of the barrel the H.M. POPE has the periods after the H and M and looks like yours font-wise. On the BOTTOM of the barrel near the receiver are the following- top line (imagine the barrel pointed straight up, and I will add  quotation marks for clarity)  "692" , next line says "B2" next line says "15.9", final line says "2.10.27"
Finally, there is another H.M. POPE exactly the same as the top of the barrel running lengthways...under it in very light letters is "ERIC JOHNSON".   
Is this consistent with what you know about Pope barrels?
  
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JLouis
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Re: Brand new at this!
Reply #10 - Oct 29th, 2012 at 3:10pm
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It sounds like Eric Johnson a highly noted gunsmith installed the barrel. Eric's work is highly collectible as well. Please someone correct if I get this wrong. The barrel number would be 692, date made 2/10/27 the B2 I am not familiar with and 15.9 sounds like the final twist at the muzzle. I believe Harry would have been in his mid 50's when he made the barrel.

J.Louis
« Last Edit: Oct 29th, 2012 at 3:18pm by JLouis »  

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Plain Old Bill
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Re: Brand new at this!
Reply #11 - Oct 29th, 2012 at 7:34pm
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Good Lord....not just the barrel maker, but the gunsmith is famous too? I am very happy that I've not yet started any kind of restoration. 
In any case, the only thing that needs restoration is the stock. It needs a buttplate- I'm altogether not sure how to go about putting one on. Apparently the buttplate must be removed every time the comb is taken off and the bolt taken out. Or...a two-piece buttplate?
The two places on the forend where I guess one would normally find tuning screws on a Model 52 stock (angled about 45 degrees earthward of the barrel's plane near the forend tip) have been filled in, perhaps with glue. 
The barrel has a nice patina, as does the action. The bore is in great shape. It looks like the only things to be done would be to remove the stock's finish and refinish the stock after a buttplate is added, then find a sighting system, scope or tube sight would seem to be appropriate given the sight mounts. 
But...now that I'm finding the history is so profound, maybe allow someone who knows more to take ownership? 
Sorry- thinking out loud!
  
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slumlord44
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Re: Brand new at this!
Reply #12 - Oct 29th, 2012 at 8:12pm
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I would not be in a rush to refinish the stock. Clean yes, refinish, not so sure about that. Hard to go back once you re finish it. I have refinished stocks on collectible guns when the finish was trashed and did not match the condition of the wood. BUT, on an extremely rare gun, like my  Stevens Bisley Model, careful cleaning is all I have done. If the butplate is missing or badly damaged, replacing it with an original that has a finish that comes close to matching the rest of the gun would be appropriate in my opinion.
  
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ledball
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Re: Brand new at this!
Reply #13 - Oct 29th, 2012 at 8:57pm
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I would not refinish this rifle, when your friends find out you have a Pope barrel on a Eric Johnson rifle they won't care much about the looks.   ledball
  
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JLouis
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Re: Brand new at this!
Reply #14 - Oct 29th, 2012 at 9:37pm
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I would gently clean the stock, a re-finish would instantly kill a hug chunk of it's value and collectability. A great big no no.

Congratulations on your purchase, it appears it is turning out to be more than you dreamed off.

J.Louis
  

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H. M. Pope
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Re: Brand new at this!
Reply #15 - Oct 30th, 2012 at 1:52pm
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H.M. POPE-  on top of the barrel the H.M. POPE has the periods after the H and M and looks like yours font-wise. On the BOTTOM of the barrel near the receiver are the following- top line (imagine the barrel pointed straight up, and I will add  quotation marks for clarity)  "692" , next line says "B2" next line says "15.9", final line says "2.10.27"
Finally, there is another H.M. POPE exactly the same as the top of the barrel running lengthways...under it in very light letters is "ERIC JOHNSON".  
Is this consistent with what you know about Pope barrels?


Plain Old Bill,
I think the Eric Johnson work book is available, with the numbers on the barrel it may be possible to find more info on your 52. It sounds to me that it may have been a Prone rifle.

Winchester made some factory rifles with a two piece butt stock and the top half had to be removed to remove the bolt. 

Being that this is a Single Shot group, and your 52 may have been converted to a single shot, but guys here still consider it one of those new fangled Bolt guns with way to many moving parts, so you may find much more info on the Winchester Model 52 Group at:

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The guys there seem to know a lot about the Winchester M-52 and the guys that built them.
  Regards
    H. M. Pope
  
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Re: Brand new at this!
Reply #16 - Oct 30th, 2012 at 4:05pm
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Hi, I go along with everyone else and would like to add a small comment. When you want to clean the barrel do so very carefully from the breech end, not the muzzle as you would a surplus Springfield or Mauser. It is really easy to score a barrel near the muzzle with a cleaning rod. Nice rifle and a great find.
Mike
  
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slumlord44
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Re: Brand new at this!
Reply #17 - Oct 30th, 2012 at 7:40pm
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The guys over at the Winchester 52 Forum on Rimfire Central would love to hear about your great find. Lots of good people who realy know Winchester 52's.
  
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H. M. Pope
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Re: Brand new at this!
Reply #18 - Oct 31st, 2012 at 10:42pm
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slumlord44 wrote on Oct 30th, 2012 at 7:40pm:
The guys over at the Winchester 52 Forum on Rimfire Central would love to hear about your great find. Lots of good people who realy know Winchester 52's.


I agree, I forgot about the M-52 Forum. I'm more involved with the 52 Group because I'm shooting in their Matches. There's three or four guys on the M-52 forum that are really into the Win. M-52 so you should check them out also.
  Regards
   H. M. Pope
  
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Plain Old Bill
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Re: Brand new at this!
Reply #19 - Nov 1st, 2012 at 8:33pm
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Thanks, fellas, just got the power back and saw your kind and thoughtful answers. I will not restore any part of that piece - sounds like it's better to leave alone. Thanks for the tip about the Model 52 site...I surely will seek some more knowledge there. 
Hope y'all survived the "Frankenstorm" with as little damage as we experienced, if you're in PA or near the east coast. Thanks again!
  
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JLouis
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Re: Brand new at this!
Reply #20 - Nov 1st, 2012 at 9:09pm
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You are very welcome and glad to hear that you did not get hit to hard. Please keep us posted on what find out over on the Win. 52 site. You have a very unique rifle. With all of the talk about collectibility there is no harm done by getting out and shooting it so please also let us know well it also shoots. If time allows a picture of the entire rifle would an honor to see as well. 

J.Louis
  

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