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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) BSing 22rf, your oppinion (Read 21303 times)
frnkeore
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BSing 22rf, your oppinion
Oct 17th, 2012 at 2:06pm
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I was surprised at the remarks made on the other BSing thread. I'd like to continue the other thread   w/o the controversy and just be able to answer questions about the actual process and not fight about it's use. So, I'm starting this thread to deal with those issues.

As posted, I've been shooting BSed 22rf since 1989. I was Scuetzen Meister in those days for Jefferson State Schuetzen Society and checked the rule book before stating this. There were no rules restricting 22rf's in anyway at that time, nor until 1997 when I stopped shooting for the next 15 years. I found no opposition to it at any match I attended and I won the Springfield, Oregon, RF match (the largest match in OR) the the fall of 1994 with Chuck Boardman and Tommy Mason being 2nd and third. There was never a protest filed or any negative things said about it in those days. Both men still remember the days that I bSed and I shot BSed at Tommy's Stars and Stripes Match two years ago w/o any controversy or questioning of this type loading, my first big match in 15 years and both men were in attendance.  

In November of last year, I posted about this and there was a 5 page discussion that ensued that ended with the BSing of 22rf being allow by the BOD. You can read the whole discussion by clicking on the link in the other thread.

The main thing I would like to know regarding this is why there seems to be such opposition to it by some people. It's not anything that anyone that shoots BSed CF can't do and at 50 cents per trigger pull for RF ammo, I would have thought it would have been welcomed. Shooting match quality RF ammo is five times more expensive than shooting CF and shooting RF's BSed is no more expensive than than shooting CF BSed.

I'm not advocating changing the rules to restrict fixed ammo, I'm just sharing the data that I've  accumulated and passing it on to those interested.

I would be interested in your thoughts regarding this.

Frank
« Last Edit: Oct 18th, 2012 at 2:55am by frnkeore »  

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screwloosetc
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Re: BSing 22rf, your oppinion
Reply #1 - Oct 17th, 2012 at 2:24pm
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Frank
My question to you is where do you get the primed cases and at what cost?
Thanks 
Tom
  
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whitey hanson
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Re: BSing 22rf, your oppinion
Reply #2 - Oct 17th, 2012 at 2:28pm
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Frank some people Have big bank accounts and cost is no object.And others just want to be a pain.BUT others are very interested. Maybe not to use but to maybe learn something new.So don't give up because of some.Let's hear it. JMO Whitey
  
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frnkeore
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Re: BSing 22rf, your oppinion
Reply #3 - Oct 17th, 2012 at 2:35pm
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Tom,
I buy the ammo in bricks that cost between 18 and 20 dollars per 500. I pull the bullets and use the lead (don't buy plated if you want to use the lead), I save the powder and use it for fire forming or you can reuse it to shoot when you get enough.

Frank
  

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MIKE-T
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Re: BSing 22rf, your oppinion
Reply #4 - Oct 17th, 2012 at 2:56pm
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Frank if some one could come up with a source for the empty primed cases I would sure be interested in giving it a try, pulled 22rf bullets when I was a kid with pliers and have the black unburned powder spots in my palm to prove it, oops just looked and I guess 55 years makes even those fade till you can not find them.

Keep us informed about your testing and shooting it is a very interesting subject.
Mike
  
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screwloosetc
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Re: BSing 22rf, your oppinion
Reply #5 - Oct 17th, 2012 at 3:29pm
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Frank
My experience with the bulk amo has been inconsistant performance. I just picked up a batch of Federal HV and about 10% of it wont cycly my semi auto rifles and handguns. It is worse than the Remington target I just quit using for a similiar situation. Have you had any primers not ignite? 
The BS has me curious. What powders have you found most consistant? I think I can do this with my 12/15 Martini. 225438 lyman pure lead dipped into Alox sized when forced into chamber and propelled bt 2400 or PB. This bullet is very acurate in my .223 bore Winchester hornet. What do you think would be a realistic velocity? Some where I remember some one extending a 45/70 with a paper tube to increase powder capacity.I have no doubts as to the strength of the 12/15.Only concern will be firingpin fit.
I will probably get into this as soon as I am finished fooling with my pump 22s Trying to solve a feed problem with the 1903 savage. Can hit anything I can see with the Remington.
Thanks for the food for thought
Tom
  
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frnkeore
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Re: BSing 22rf, your oppinion
Reply #6 - Oct 17th, 2012 at 3:39pm
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Tom,
I'll address your questions on the other thread, later today and give loading data.

Frank
  

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Re: BSing 22rf, your oppinion
Reply #7 - Oct 17th, 2012 at 4:15pm
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No problem BS rimfire with me ! Have at it.

Boats
  
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screwloosetc
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Re: BSing 22rf, your oppinion
Reply #8 - Oct 17th, 2012 at 4:36pm
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Well I did it
Pulled a couple of bullets from the crappy federal and took it a step farther.
Shoved a 22 cal Benjamin pellet past the chamber of my #4RB
Insertet the primed case an I now have a RB pellet gun. 0 noise would work great indoors. give it a try. Would be a good way to practice indoors 
If it don't rain I will shoot a target have no way to check velocity but it didnt take long to get to the backstop 50yds away.
« Last Edit: Oct 17th, 2012 at 5:10pm by »  
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QuestionableMaynard8130
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Re: BSing 22rf, your oppinion
Reply #9 - Oct 17th, 2012 at 10:04pm
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I have been using the aguila  "sans Poudre"  (primer only) 22 lr for close range & indoor practice. I'm more concerned with working on offhand form than shooting bulls-eyes.  but I notice a whole lot of difference in the sound and the impact (even factoring in my wandering offhand technique)  some eve fail to exit the barrel.

one of the theories of accurate 22 rimfire is that the most accurate match ammo is that with the most consistent priming compound application.  And getting the exactly consistent volume of priming compound into the case and applying it uniformly around the rim seems to be a bigger issue than bullet alloy and lube consistency or even exactly uniform powder charges..   Even the 99 buck/brick match stuff still shows evidence of enough velocity variation to create a3 or 4 inch vertical string @ 200 yds on a calm day.

if primer compound application is such a big factor in creating the premium match rimfire ammo, my sense of logic would have me questioning the use of lower cost (assuming that indicates lower 'quality" primer compound application) ammo to generate the primed cases.

Unless of course the change to a longer heavier bullet with a better BC, and/or tweaking the powder charge/type created enough improvement overall to outweigh the primer variations.

Frank,  do you weigh/sort your primed, de-powdered and de-bulleted cases to weed out the extremes?   

   The 22 rfs I have been using mostly for matches are martini-type actions. one a CCJohnson BSA#12 and the other a German martini actioned  22 rf schuetzen.  I also use a Ballard and a #2 RR and a Ruger #1 conversion.  How do you keep the powder from spilling into the action when inserting a charged case?  With my still old thick fingers, sometimes just getting the factory 22s inserted properly is an issue.  I think I'd really have trouble with open charged cases.
  

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screwloosetc
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Re: BSing 22rf, your oppinion
Reply #10 - Oct 18th, 2012 at 12:06am
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When I was practicing alot with bulk amo I made a gauge to check rim thicknes and sourted them by weight. My Mkll shot this stuff as well as the expensive target. These groups were shot with Winchester HV HP bulk from Wallyworld
Tom
  
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JLouis
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Re: BSing 22rf, your oppinion
Reply #11 - Oct 18th, 2012 at 12:15am
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From what I have read lube plays a big a part as well and there are some that find a pinch more accuracy by rolling the factory bullets in a lube of their choice. It is my understanding that is also  illegal to do so per the rules of some of the other shooting organizations.

J.Louis
« Last Edit: Oct 18th, 2012 at 5:26pm by JLouis »  

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.22-5-40
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Re: BSing 22rf, your oppinion
Reply #12 - Oct 18th, 2012 at 5:18pm
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Hello, everyone.  All this discussion of rimfire B.S. has jogged my memory.  There is another type of B.S....using std. fixed .22 long rifle ammunition.
   Back in the mid 1990's, Wayne Schwartz was chambering Ruger No. 1 rifles for rimfire.  At one match, he brought out a a short-chambered rifle.
   He had made up a hand-pushed spring loaded seater.  If I remember right, a ctg. was placed in this seater, & pushed home until it bottomed out against breech face.  The bullet was fully engraved right up to case mouth.  I believe he had another rifle that didn't engrave so far up on bullet.   
    I remember him letting me fire a few rounds..the seating pressure required was quite high.   
  I believe the jury was still out at that time if it was worth the effort or not.
  
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QuestionableMaynard8130
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Re: BSing 22rf, your oppinion
Reply #13 - Oct 18th, 2012 at 6:26pm
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I do that all the time with my 200 yd bench 22 rf.   when Steve Durren converted and rebarrelled it he cut the tight match chamber short enough that the #1 action will not close or cam the round all the way into the chamber---even with a little bevel on the top edge of the block.  I have to use a pusher to seat a round. 
FWIW:  Steve spent some serious time consulting with Wayne Schwartz before taking on my conversion project.

A seated round of almost any ammo, especially the various "match ammo" I have tried shows almost full engraving on the bullet right back to the case mouth when a round is carefully pushed out with a soft tipped rod.

we have shooters now who are within a few points of ringing the bell for the 250x10 with the 22 rf @ 200 (bench)   We have the guns and we have the ammo, and we have some damn good shooters.   to me the biggest factor is "the conditions". 
  My interest in the 22rf/B.S idea (other than sheer curiosity) is wondering if a different bullet just might make that little bit of BC difference with the wind. 
  My concern (other than common-sense safety, especially among less experienced shooters who are looking for the magic bullet) is that unless you can be assured of match quality primed cases;  you might wind up trading away match-grade ignition advantages for the tinkerable bullet/lube/powder ability
  

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Re: BSing 22rf, your oppinion
Reply #14 - Oct 18th, 2012 at 9:21pm
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If one could just get past those one, two or more shoots out of a box that just drop off one would be way ahead of the game. What makes for a match grade case, one would assume it would be the primer mix and amount but that might not hold true. If our friend Charlie D. was still around he would be eating up this conversation and would be headed off to do some extensive testing  on our behalf with his machine rest and protected range. I only wish I had the means to do it on his behalf for the group.

J.Louis
  

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