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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) BSing 22rf, your oppinion (Read 21293 times)
QuestionableMaynard8130
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Re: BSing 22rf, your oppinion
Reply #15 - Oct 18th, 2012 at 9:50pm
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I suspect that the olympic shooters, regular and biathalon who have their nation's pride and $$$ behind them are studying 22 rf ammo in ways far beyond our more amateur efforts.

The various 22 rf  50 yard benchrest guys have practically made a religion of it and the BenchrestCentral  22 rf  group pursues it in all of its arcane-ity. 

    The big difference between what we do and what they do is that we are chasing bulls-eyes at 100 and 200 yards. Those distances in the open air just add so many more factors that they simply don't know how to deal with it.  (Just out of curiosity, what is the max distance shot with the 22 in the Olympics now?)

However everything I have read seems to indicate that uniform case dimensions and consistently uniform distribution of the primer compound in the case rim are the "holy grail" of high grade match rimfire ammo.   Without consistent ignition everything else, bullets, lubes, powders, are all wasted.
  

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.22-5-40
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Re: BSing 22rf, your oppinion
Reply #16 - Oct 18th, 2012 at 11:10pm
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Well, since we are breaking new ground...The rimfire priming consistancy is the biggest hurdle.  Back when Remington came out with it's electronic EtronX priming system..I kind of figured it would flop...However, I also remember thinking, if there ever was a ctg. that could benifit from such a system the .22 long rifle would be it.
  Just think..no more concern for consistant firing pin strike, rim thickness wouldn't be so critical, case hardness variation wouldn't be such an issue.
   I wonder if the priming mix could be done away with altogether?  and have some sort of electronic igniter?
  
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Re: BSing 22rf, your oppinion
Reply #17 - Oct 19th, 2012 at 1:48am
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I wonder if the priming mix could be done away with altogether?  and have some sort of electronic igniter?

Not legal in any shooting discipline that I know of.

Frank
  

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Set_Trigger
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Re: BSing 22rf, your oppinion
Reply #18 - Oct 19th, 2012 at 11:58pm
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I think if BS 22 rimfire is allowed in 22 ASSRA RF events maybe the word "cartridge" should be eliminated from the 22 Rim Fire rule. 

This is what I found when I checked the new rule book.

Section 1.13   .22 Rimfire Rifles
.22 caliber rimfire rifles are classified separately and do not compete with the centerfire rifles. 

Only .22 Short, Long or Long rifle "cartridges" shall be in this category.

Please don't think I'm against BS 22 RF's, I'm not, I could care less cause while you guys fumbling around BS's I'll be shooting my 10-X ammo, figuring that if it's good enough for Olympic shooters that are shooting for the GOLD it's good enough for any ASSRA match I'll be shooting in.

But I am a Rules type shooter, and I abide by what the rules say, if I see a shooter not following the rules that I have to follow I do get upset.   

Glad to see that the match John Merz is running makes it clear that :

"All ammunition must be fired as it comes from the manufacturer the ammunition may not be altered in any way. Adding lubricant, changing powder, or altering the bullet in any way is forbidden."
  S T

  
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Re: BSing 22rf, your oppinion
Reply #19 - Oct 20th, 2012 at 12:11pm
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If you go back re-read all of the posts it has been made perfectly clear that breach seating as far as ASSRA is concerned meets the rules and is totally acceptable. Therefore a change in the rules and or verbiage would not have to be entertained.

John Merz's match is not an ASSRA sponsored Match and breach seating is not allowed in the format that he has lined out. There is nothing wrong with that either, it is his match to be played by his rules and we should thank him for dearly for offering it to the Schuetzen shooting community. A match of that magnitude is not an easy endeavor so please support his efforts wholeheartedly without complaint and for those who will be participating I wish you the very best.

J.Louis
  

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Set_Trigger
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Re: BSing 22rf, your oppinion
Reply #20 - Oct 20th, 2012 at 1:03pm
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John,
I've read the post, and I've also read the rules as they are now written. If you do not understand or know what the words .22 Short, Long or Long rifle  "cartridges" mean then there's nothing more I can say to you.

If ASSRA wants to allow BS 22 RF,  and if records are allowed to be set with this type shooting all they have to do is remove the word "cartridges".

  As to the event that John M. is running your saying "please support his efforts wholeheartedly without complaint", what makes you think I'm complaining, I am supporting it, are you ?.

John's event does have some problems so there may not be as good a turn out as there could have been but hopefully things will get better next year. He is to be commended for setting it up, I may be wrong but I don't think he will be over worked with it.
  S T   

  
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Re: BSing 22rf, your oppinion
Reply #21 - Oct 20th, 2012 at 1:46pm
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If you go by the below definition from Wikipedia Set_trigger has a point.

Pete

Cartridge (firearms)
A cartridge, also called a round, packages the bullet, propellant (usually either smokeless powder or gunpowder) and primer into a single unit within a containing metallic case that is precisely made to fit within the firing chamber of a firearm.
  
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Re: BSing 22rf, your oppinion
Reply #22 - Oct 20th, 2012 at 1:47pm
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Never implied you were complaining about John's match, was just asking the rest of the group to support his format and to thank him for his efforts. Yes I do support John's efforts wholeheartedly and I thank him for providing the opportunity to the Schuetzen community in whole  by making it a National Event.

I am not going to argue over how you interrupt the rules.  John Merz has already done that on behalf of the ASSRA  in his earlier post as follows. 

There is no need to rewrite the rule. The rule states short, long or longrifle cartridges only. It does not state how those cartridges may of may not be used. If someone wants to breech seat .22 rimfire cartridges god bless him. Though I fail to see an advantage to the process I also fail to see the harm in general as long as the hulls arrive unloaded at the range. Exparimentation is at the heart of what we do. It is up to each of us to descide what will work the best for each of us within the framework of the rules. What we need here is more people trying ideas and less sea-lawyers arguing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
40 Rod
  

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Re: BSing 22rf, your oppinion
Reply #23 - Oct 20th, 2012 at 1:59pm
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ST,
We can dissect this sentense farther,

Only .22 Short, Long or Long rifle cartridges shall be in this category.

I read it as saying that the rifle used needs capable of shooting only these type cartridges and so, be chambered for them, as it says "category". It does not say that only .22 short, long or long rifle cartridges must be shot in this class.

I don't think that if the traditional class said that "only original BP cartridges shall be in this category" that people would question if BSing would be allowed.

Also, in CF, being allowed to BS doesn't preclude being able to shoot fixed ammo.

If you look at Section 2.0 Ammunition. There is NO distinction between RF or CF. It says ONLY the word ammunition, and that can only mean ALL ammunition used in all ASSRA's matches, unless changed.

Section 2.03      Fixed Ammunition
Fixed ammunition may be used at the shooter’s option, or when required for certain matches, providing the components are in accord with the rules in Sections 2.01 and 2.02.

It says certain matches and not .22 rimfire matches. This is another reason to believe that the "cartridges" stated in the RF rule means "chambering".

JMO,

Frank

PS
If Lupua came out with a Platium grade of ammo and charged $1 per round, would anyone squack?
« Last Edit: Oct 20th, 2012 at 2:05pm by frnkeore »  

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Re: BSing 22rf, your oppinion
Reply #24 - Oct 20th, 2012 at 2:15pm
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"cartridge" means cartridge. 

    Joe.  Grin
  

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Re: BSing 22rf, your oppinion
Reply #25 - Oct 20th, 2012 at 2:46pm
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Yes, Joe but, it doesn't say they have to be "shot" only that they are in a "category". If 22rf's are a ammunition, they are covered in the ammuition section.

Frank Smiley
  

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Re: BSing 22rf, your oppinion
Reply #26 - Oct 20th, 2012 at 2:47pm
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westerner wrote on Oct 20th, 2012 at 2:15pm:
"cartridge" means cartridge. 
    Joe.  Grin


I agree Joe,
But even though Pete TenX went through the trouble of looking up the word as it pertains to shooting :

"Cartridge (firearms)
A cartridge, also called a round, packages the bullet, propellant (usually either smokeless powder or gunpowder) and primer into a "single unit"  within a containing metallic case that is precisely made to fit within the firing chamber of a firearm"

It seems that no matter how easy it is for most that understand english there seems to always be some can read but don't understand what the words mean.

Frank and John L., do you guys know what a "single unit" means.
  S T
  
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Re: BSing 22rf, your oppinion
Reply #27 - Oct 20th, 2012 at 3:03pm
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I sure do and there is nothing in the rule that states at it has to be shot that way. Only that they are in a category by themselves.

I again defer you to the ammunition rule. Unless you don't consider 22rf catridges ammunition.

Frank
  

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Re: BSing 22rf, your oppinion
Reply #28 - Oct 20th, 2012 at 3:16pm
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Do you not understand the very simplistic interpretation of the rule presented by John on behalf of the ASSRA.

It does not matter what I  think or what you think or for that matter what anyone thinks the rule has been interpreted and it is what it is and I will honor it as such.

All you are trying to do is to piss off the board to promote your own agenda and that appears to make the Rimfire matches a rich man's game so you can buy your way to the top in lieu of earning it.

J.Louis
« Last Edit: Oct 20th, 2012 at 3:24pm by JLouis »  

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Re: BSing 22rf, your oppinion
Reply #29 - Oct 20th, 2012 at 3:27pm
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Time to get back to the original subject at hand instead of trying to kill it with more nonesense that being the means and methods for breach seating rimfire for those who want to pursue it's use.

J.Louis
  

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