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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Borchardt rifle in 8.15x46R (Read 37007 times)
harry_eales
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Re: Borchardt rifle in 8.15x46R
Reply #15 - Oct 30th, 2012 at 5:00am
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Good morning  Mike,

Was the Lever pin screw frozen in place? It isn't necessary to remove it to strip the action down, less than one complete turn of the locking screw will align the cut out on it's edge with the lever pin head which can simply be pushed out. However, if your uncertain always let someone who is used to that action do it. I'm surprised it's stuck inless the thread is rusted in place. Even if that has happened it's an easy job to drill out the screw and retap the thread. It's only a few minutes work to make or adapt an existing screw
to fit.

I'm always a little wary about what gunwriters put onto paper if they are not machinists. Certainly some milling was carried out on the action but most of the cutting was done by the use of vertical shaping machines which cut the breechblock mortice and squared off the sides and corners of the cut behind the breechblock mortice and many other operations. Sharps didn't spend a lot on the internal finishing of metal parts, time was money. Many people have mentioned to me just how roughly their Borchardts were machined, as long as the outside looked O/K that was it as far as the manufacturer was concerned. By examining actual actions or even perusing decent photographs and looking at the tool marks it is relativly easy to tell what type of machine was used to make any particular machining cut. Vertical shaping machines are very rare today I haven't seen one in a factory in over 35 years.

It does look like the east coast is in for some wet times over the next few days. I hope Joe can get his customers goods to an upper floor and keep them dry.

Be aware that the lower tang curve of the DST's may not fit your existing stock. 

Let's have some pictures as soon as you get it back please.

Harry
  
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mwhite49
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Re: Borchardt rifle in 8.15x46R
Reply #16 - Nov 2nd, 2012 at 12:27pm
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Even though New York state suffered severe flooding Joseph's area is OK, my Borchardt is there and he has taken it apart. It seems as though this rifle may have been sent over to Germany for some conversion work. Joseph does not think it was completed here. The back of the breech block has been cut for lighting the action and the action rear end has been narrowed to allow a smaller grip area. The action is pristine as is the breech block face. He just needs to clean it up really good as it has years of grime on it and then install the set trigger assembly. I'm going to sell the butt stock/butt plate that came with it as it does not fit really well due to the action modifications at the action rear and restock it myself. I'll have Gail at CPA profile a blank for me then we are off to finishing. 
Mike
  
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zrifleman
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Re: Borchardt rifle in 8.15x46R
Reply #17 - Nov 3rd, 2012 at 1:39am
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My two cents worth---the rear of the action is tapered in the Zischang style. Looks like his work.
  
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harry_eales
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Re: Borchardt rifle in 8.15x46R
Reply #18 - Nov 3rd, 2012 at 1:10pm
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Hello Mike,
The more I look at your action the more I am convinced it a Zischang modified rifle. August Oscar Zischang was a German and a German trained Gunsmith. His experience with Sharps Borchardts was unrivalled as he was a foreman in the Sharps factory when  they were produced. He would have had experience with Krupp barrels before he came to the USA, so it is not unlikely he would use Krupp steel blanks to make his own barrels.

Cleaning the action of dirt and grime will only take a few minutes in an ultra-sonic tank with a good solvent.

I'm glad to hear that your action is safe and sound after the NY floods. Immersion in salt water doesn't do any action any good at all. Smiley

If you intend to use Black Powder only it shouldn't be necessary to bush the firing pin hole, but if your going to use that new fangled Nitro Powder it may pay you to do so.  Roll Eyes

Please let us all see pictures of the rifle as soon as you get it back. Zrifleman, thanks for your support and 2 cents worth. lol

Harry
  
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mwhite49
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Re: Borchardt rifle in 8.15x46R
Reply #19 - Nov 4th, 2012 at 11:33am
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A friend sent me this link to a Ballard with a Krupp Fluid Steel barrel Eissen, and it is a Zischang, he also owned a Borchardt barreled the same as mine, 32 inch long, full octagon in 32-40. This may be a 32-40 as I have no did a chamber cast yet. Nice to hear all of the good info as it definitely supports that this may well be Zishangs work. Joseph Lozito's work is almost as nice so when completed it should be really a nice rifle.
Thanks to all for the great input.
Here is the link:
(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
  
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harry_eales
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Re: Borchardt rifle in 8.15x46R
Reply #20 - Nov 6th, 2012 at 3:24am
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Hello Mike,

An interesting website and some very nice looking old firearms. 
When you spoke to Joe Lozito did he give you a rough delivery date for the DST's? Just wondering you understand, many good smiths are excellent craftsmen but a date estimate off the top of their heads is often months if not years out.  Smiley

Harry
« Last Edit: Nov 6th, 2012 at 3:38am by »  
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mwhite49
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Re: Borchardt rifle in 8.15x46R
Reply #21 - Nov 6th, 2012 at 12:50pm
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Harry, Joseph has several sets of these already built just awaiting an action. I think the 500.00 is a bargain. He does exceptional work. I'm still trying to figure out if I should refinish the action as it is a nice patina now but with a freckling of very small minute rust pits, and they are there but barely noticable. if it were a complete original Zischang I would leave it alone but since it gets new triggers and upper tang, and a new stock I may just refinish the action. I would leave the barrel as is it's at about a bit over 90% decent blue. If I had requested he would have just sent out the triggers to me. I feel better having Joseph set it up correctly.
Mike
  
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harry_eales
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Re: Borchardt rifle in 8.15x46R
Reply #22 - Nov 6th, 2012 at 3:12pm
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mwhite49 wrote on Nov 6th, 2012 at 12:50pm:
Harry, Joseph has several sets of these already built just awaiting an action. I think the 500.00 is a bargain. He does exceptional work. I'm still trying to figure out if I should refinish the action as it is a nice patina now but with a freckling of very small minute rust pits, and they are there but barely noticable. if it were a complete original Zischang I would leave it alone but since it gets new triggers and upper tang, and a new stock I may just refinish the action. I would leave the barrel as is it's at about a bit over 90% decent blue. If I had requested he would have just sent out the triggers to me. I feel better having Joseph set it up correctly.
Mike


Hello Mike,

I agree with you the price is fair given the amount of precision work that goes into them. At one time Frank Zika made them and still may do them. The only other 'Smith' I have heard of was in Alaska but he's retired I believe. I understand he only made a dozen or so sets and said he wouldn't make any more.

What you do with the rifle is up to you, it's your property but returning it to it's original configuration is restoration. If you do refinish the action be certain to keep those sharp edges where the radius's meet the flat metal. You don't get those on a Borchardt unless it's been worked over by an expert. If you have a buffing machine, throw it out nothing does more damage to sharp or flat surfaces , edges and screw holes. It's not a quick way of doing a job, it's a quick way of ruining the rifle.

Don't forget to post the pictures when it comes back.

Harry
  
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mwhite49
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Re: Borchardt rifle in 8.15x46R
Reply #23 - Nov 6th, 2012 at 9:30pm
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Harry, I never BUFF, I use a surface plate when at all possible, high quality files, high grade wet and dry sand paper. And I always watch the lines to ensure that everyting looks correct. I may just leave it as is. I'll have to wait and see what Joseph says, as he needs to get it all together and functional first. That is the #1 issue. 
Mike
  
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harry_eales
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Re: Borchardt rifle in 8.15x46R
Reply #24 - Nov 7th, 2012 at 2:41am
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mwhite49 wrote on Nov 6th, 2012 at 9:30pm:
Harry, I never BUFF, I use a surface plate when at all possible, high quality files, high grade wet and dry sand paper. And I always watch the lines to ensure that everyting looks correct. I may just leave it as is. I'll have to wait and see what Joseph says, as he needs to get it all together and functional first. That is the #1 issue. 
Mike


Good to read that Mike. Please keep us posted as to the progress.

Harry
  
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mwhite49
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Re: Borchardt rifle in 8.15x46R
Reply #25 - Nov 13th, 2012 at 11:47pm
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Joseph updated me and said that it is 100% fro sure a Zischang rifle. And the workmanship is impeccable. The breech block is scalloped Creedmore style. I,m having Joseph refinish it as he needs to take a small cut on each side of the trigger slot for the new triggers and it will be easier if the action is annealed first. Then Joseph will color case it for me. His colors come out at about 100 % of looking original and his price is really good. My wood is on its way to CPA for profiling so I'm making progress.
Mike
  
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mwhite49
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Re: Borchardt rifle in 8.15x46R
Reply #26 - Nov 14th, 2012 at 9:01pm
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I called CPA today about my stock and have settled for an early Long Range pattern for it. The wood arrived and Paul said it is really a nice Turkish blank with a matching forearm that may have been cut off the same piece so I got really lucky, and the wood is nice a dry too. Paul and I talked about the rifle and he said that Zischage more than likely rifled the barrel as Zishange would order Krupp barrel blanks profiled how he wanted them and bored out to his size, he then more than likely polished the heck out of the bore and rifled it too. It may be a Zischang 35-30 or a 32-40 no way of knowing until I do a chamber cast. The good thing is the bore is really in great condition so it should be an accurate rifle in what ever caliber it ends up being. 
Mike
  
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harry_eales
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Re: Borchardt rifle in 8.15x46R
Reply #27 - Nov 15th, 2012 at 9:14am
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Hello Mike,

Thanks for the updates, can't wait to see the pictures of the finished item.   Cool

Harry
  
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mwhite49
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Re: Borchardt rifle in 8.15x46R
Reply #28 - Nov 15th, 2012 at 9:26am
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Harry, your up and about I see. Well when it rains it pours. I just got a nice Ballard forged action in a .25 caliber something. And from the same person a heavy Barreled Sharps model 1874.  He also had some other items but these two were the only things worth keeping. How is your borchardt coming along? I wish I was half the machinist you  are Harry.That and had a lathe too that would be nice. 
Mike
  
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harry_eales
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Re: Borchardt rifle in 8.15x46R
Reply #29 - Nov 15th, 2012 at 10:11am
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Hello Mike,
I've just got back from a few days in France and Belgium visiting the WW1 Battlefields and Cemetries. I've been promising myself for years I would go and last weekend on a sudden whim I packed the car and drove to Dover on the south coast of England and took the ferry to France. I spent three days just visiting the places where so many young men died and the places where some of them remain. There are tens of thousands of British Troops with no known grave who's remains still lie in Flanders Fields and elsewhere. I'm very glad I went to pay my respects, but the overwhelming feeling I came away with was, what a tragic waste of so many hundreds of thousands of young mens lives. It's hard to try and comprehend the numbers.

The Borchardt isn't proceeding anywhere near as fast as I would like.  Cry  Last winters cold induced Arthritis in my hands did not go away this spring as it has in the past and I am very wary about operating machine tools without having full control of both hands. I'm doing dribs and drabs but I really need more control of my fingers. Maybe next spring will be warmer and I get back to working more often.

Harry
  
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