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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Antique German made gun (Read 29244 times)
charlemagne
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Antique German made gun
Oct 6th, 2012 at 10:10pm
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Hi, I need some help identifying the age and potential value of this gun. My Uncle in Germany gave this to me as a gift, he was in WWII during that time. It has markings like "D.R.G.M" in the rear sight, 1145, and Bohler Stahl. Any help will be appreciated. Thanks!  Smiley
  
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charlemagne
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Re: Antique German made gun
Reply #1 - Oct 6th, 2012 at 10:12pm
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more photos...
  
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charlemagne
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Re: Antique German made gun
Reply #2 - Oct 6th, 2012 at 10:13pm
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more...
  
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charlemagne
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Re: Antique German made gun
Reply #3 - Oct 6th, 2012 at 10:15pm
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Smiley
  
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Singleshotlover
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Re: Antique German made gun
Reply #4 - Oct 7th, 2012 at 12:21am
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Looks to be a 22 rim fire pistol. The words "free pistol" come to mind. designed to be shot offhand at pistol or olympic matches. Very old world quality which you don't see any more. Thats my best guess. Frank
  
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JLouis
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Re: Antique German made gun
Reply #5 - Oct 7th, 2012 at 4:20am
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Pistol competition is still quite popular at the ISSA National events. Finding the pistol is quite challenging and this gentleman has just what one needs. 

J.Louis
  

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bnice
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Re: Antique German made gun
Reply #6 - Oct 7th, 2012 at 8:45am
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There is a similar gun on gun broker, put in "single shot pistol". Also  these frequently go through the Rock Island Auction and you maybe able to look at there past auctions for a idea on value. J.L. is right the action would make a great Bench pistol, but would be a shame to pull it apart as nice as it looks.
  
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QuestionableMaynard8130
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Re: Antique German made gun
Reply #7 - Oct 7th, 2012 at 9:58am
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There are /were a wide range of single shot target pistols built for formal and informal competition with similar lines using a number of single shot actions.  Some were very highly developed and used in international competition during the 1st 2/3s more or less of the 20th century.

Some were imported for competition use and some were brought back as WW2 "trophies".   I have wanted one for years but the grips are VERY personalized and none I have tried fitted me well enough to spend the money for it.
a couple I considered could have been bought in the 500-750 $$ range a few years ago.   It is my understanding that a number of former Eastern-bloc single shot "free-pistols" were imported a few years back and that that has depress ed the over all "free-pistol" market. 
  However individual example will stand on their own merit.  Since most like yours are rather unique highly customized items finding actual comparables to establish legally viable appraisals will be few and far between.  Auction house values (and especially on-line-auction sales) have obvious distortions built in.  Actual real world value will be very much the 'willing-seller/willing -buyer" deal.
  

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feuerbixler
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Re: Antique German made gun
Reply #8 - Oct 7th, 2012 at 8:34pm
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Okay, let's help another one-post-wonder...   Huh

When I can identify the distorted pics in a correct way: 
It is a Büchel Tell Target Pistol, built by Büchel since 1910, later in the 1920s by Kommer and U.A.Z. (Udo Anschütz Zella).

A very common target pistol all over Europe, very successful.

Was shot like a "free pistol" on 50 meters till WWII. We still have nowadays Traditional Bavarian Championships for old target pistol. But I think our championships for exactly such pistols are the only one worldwide.

Value? Approx. 900 bucks, if it shoots still accurate.

                 Biggi.   Smiley
« Last Edit: Oct 8th, 2012 at 5:10am by feuerbixler »  

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feuerbixler
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Re: Antique German made gun
Reply #9 - Oct 8th, 2012 at 5:16am
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Oh, I forgot to mention: 

Normally these are .22 lr, if they have German proofmarks. Some were sold for .22 "long" or "short" rimfire ammo.

If it is not "lr", the value is less, because its very difficult to find ammo. And in such cases, making a modification to lr is nearly not possible. I asked already two gunsmiths to modificate such a target pistol to lr. They advised me against the modification, because its much to expensive and the quality of the performance and accuracy will be lost.

              Biggi.  Smiley
« Last Edit: Oct 8th, 2012 at 8:26am by feuerbixler »  

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QuestionableMaynard8130
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Re: Antique German made gun
Reply #10 - Oct 8th, 2012 at 7:57am
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If I am correct the rifling twist for 22 shorts is different from that of 22 longs due to different bullet weight/length.  I suppose if one wanted, one could have the barrel relined for 22 lr and recut with a match chamber. 
Here in the US reining 22s is a reasonably common practice and a number of the gunsmiths and advanced machinists who are member here do this. 
I guess the question would be finding one who would be comfortable working with the free pistol action. Just as a guess I would WAG-estimate it'd cost 200-300 dollars based on estimates for relining 22rf rifle barrels. Action complexity might raise that an unknown amount.
  Of course it would no longer be "original", so the question to the owner would be one of theoretical collector value vrs. functional value.  Thats the issue we discuss a lot here in the site. 
I think if I got my hands on one in 22 short (here in the US some decent 22 short ammo is still available) at a reasonable price I'd give considerable thought to relining. Unless of course, it was a real elaborate high end piece, or one with a good documented provenance off ownership and use.
  

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feuerbixler
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Re: Antique German made gun
Reply #11 - Oct 8th, 2012 at 9:17am
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Wayne, I think you are right. The barrel twist is different too. 

Some years ago, somebody offered me a nice target pistol with a real good fitting hand grip. I was very interested, but I checked the proof-marks. I think the pistol was from Switzerland. And I got the hint, maybe its .22 long, like they shot it in Switzerland in the old days. It was difficult to measure the chamber, but it was made for "long" ammo.

So I asked two talented gunsmiths who liked the work on old guns. But they told me both, that it would cost more than 800 Euros to do the job - without any guarantee for accuracy. So I declined to buy that pistol. Half an year later, I found a nice Büchel Tell and bought it!
Wink Cheesy

But we don't know yet, what caliber and ammo the pistol of the thread-questioner needs. Maybe we'll never know.

          Biggi.   Smiley
  

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Re: Antique German made gun
Reply #12 - Oct 8th, 2012 at 11:29am
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Biggi-- When you refer to long ammo " but it was made for "long" ammo." what do you mean by "long" ?? Here in the US long is a size under long rifle. The reason I ask is ,I have what I believe is a Swiss Martini .22 Stutzer or at least that is what I think it is called. It looks to take a cartridge longer than the .22 long rifle, I think it may be a .22 extra long, which was longer than a long rifle. It shoots long rifle but it hits all over the target.
Bob
« Last Edit: Oct 8th, 2012 at 11:35am by Stractor »  
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feuerbixler
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Re: Antique German made gun
Reply #13 - Oct 8th, 2012 at 11:45am
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We had in Germany three sizes of .22 rimfire ammo in the old days: short / long / longrifle.

Picture taken from a book of 1922 (Otto Billmann / Kleinkaliber-Schiessen).

And I remember something about "extra long". But cannot find a pic at the moment.

         Biggi.   Smiley
  

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38_Cal
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Re: Antique German made gun
Reply #14 - Oct 8th, 2012 at 12:02pm
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Biggi, your illustration coincides with our short, long and long rifle cartridges.  Short uses a 29 gr. bullet in standard loadings, with a short case.  Long keeps the 29 gr. bullet, but with a longer case, and l.r. uses the long's case but with a 40 gr. bullet.  As mentioned, the short and long use a slower twist than the long rifle.

David
  

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