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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) AA5744 vs. IMR SR-4759 (Read 28363 times)
Gone Fly Fishing
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AA5744 vs. IMR SR-4759
Jun 13th, 2012 at 7:15pm
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  I am presently involved ( on those non-rainy days) in developing schuetzen (200 yards) and Silhouette (none BPCR) loads for the 38-55 cartridge.

  It has been suggested to me that AA 5744 will out perform the old tried and true, SR-4759, which I am about to run out of.  I am wondering if now might be the time for me to try 5744 for the first time ever.

  Apparently 5744 burns a lot cleaner, for whatever that is worth.  Do these powders load the same as each other, even up, grain for grain?

Looking for advice that might lead to a success story.  Thanks in advance.

  Creedmoormatch
  
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JLouis
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Re: AA5744 vs. IMR SR-4759
Reply #1 - Jun 13th, 2012 at 8:15pm
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You would be better served if you moved away from both if you plan on being extremely competitive in the Schuetzen game. 4759 is the better of two by a long shot but I have found the magnum pistol ball powders to be a better choice. If you have an interest in heading in that direction send me a PM with your e-mail address and I can get you headed to that road of success.

J.Louis
  

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MerwinBray
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Re: AA5744 vs. IMR SR-4759
Reply #2 - Jun 15th, 2012 at 9:14am
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Webb,

When I started down the 38-55 schuetzen load path the advice overwhelmingly given to me by many many seasoned shooters was IMR-4227.

I have very very little experience with the 5744 in the 38-55, only a hand full of fixed before the gun was worked over some. So I am no good there, but 4227 is another tried and true successful powder.

Of course, having a 38-55 and most of a can of 5744, I would be interested in your results if you do go that route.

Jon
  

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QuestionableMaynard8130
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Re: AA5744 vs. IMR SR-4759
Reply #3 - Jun 15th, 2012 at 12:39pm
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I shot a fair amount of 5744 in 45-70 and 38-55.   my (lack of) skill is such that I cannot comment on the relative accuracy.  but I'm shooting 4759 now and in my experience the 5744 leaves a lot more debris in the barrel than 4759.
  

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Re: AA5744 vs. IMR SR-4759
Reply #4 - Jun 15th, 2012 at 12:49pm
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On one Relative Quickness chart 5744 is 16,  4759 17, And 4227's are split with 16 & 17 

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I have found these charts to be useful indicators but not precise. Lot to lot powders will change.

Way I see it similar octane, one's Exxon one's Shell other is BP It doesn't make any difference but drivers do have there favorites.

J Louis use of Magnum Ball powders is moving in another direction and very successful.   

Boats
  
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Re: AA5744 vs. IMR SR-4759
Reply #5 - Jun 15th, 2012 at 9:13pm
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Have to agree with DW.  When I used 5744 in my 45-70 there was a lot of unburned powder left in the bore.  It was dirty enough, and no fun to shoot off from the bench, that I went back to black.  Smaller cases, maybe a different outcome.
Mike
  

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RoyB
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Re: AA5744 vs. IMR SR-4759
Reply #6 - Mar 8th, 2013 at 3:25pm
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Bringing back an old thread.....

My experience with these two powders is that 5744 works great with heavy for caliber bullets (330g in the 38-55 and 500+g in the 45-70) and you might want a relatively tight crimp. Otherwise you will see lots of unburnt powder and a dirty bore. This is with cast bullets as I don't shoot jacketed.

4759 works much better in the lighter bullets (250g for 38-55 and 300-420g for 45-70) Much cleaner and seemingly better ignition. But 4759 also works great with the heavier bullets.

In the 38-55 I've had fantastic success with Unique. Clean, low recoil and superb accuracy with the 250-280g bullets.

I keep hearing good things about 4227 and I bought a can to try.......as soon as it stops snowing around here! I need to go out and shovel 12" of "Light Flurries" in a few minutes! Angry
  

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mes
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Re: AA5744 vs. IMR SR-4759
Reply #7 - Mar 8th, 2013 at 3:52pm
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Cast Bullet Association members use a lot of 5744 with there gas checked bullets and seem to do quite well with it.   

I have tried it in several different cartridges with plain base bullets and it has never worked as well as 4759.
  

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rkaires
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Re: AA5744 vs. IMR SR-4759
Reply #8 - Mar 8th, 2013 at 4:24pm
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I tried AA5744 in my 40-65 for a while. 20 - 22 grains with a 400gr BPS bullet. Too much unburnt powder for me. 

I'm using IMR4227 and 4759 with better results and no unburnt powder residue.
  

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Re: AA5744 vs. IMR SR-4759
Reply #9 - Mar 8th, 2013 at 5:49pm
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My impression is that 5744 is a high bulk/(relatively) low pressure designed for heavy bullet loads in large cases.  I believe it was originally a surplus powder used in the .50 BMG.

Even though it is nominally a low-pressure powder it seems to burn more completely with more pressure within its range.   IE 500 gr bullets in 45-70 (or solidly crimped 400 grain ones on an experimental basis).   Even though there were unburned grains left in my rifle's 27" bore with 510 gr bullets it shot very well off the bench @ 200 yds (we won't discuss recoil).  I was using substantial 25 gr+ charges and a cork over powder wad and breech seating the original nose-pour Lyman-Matthews bullet.

I later had DARR-Borton moulds made that precisely scaled that bullet down for 40 cal and for 38-55.   I've never got around to getting the 40 cal rifle up and running but the 38-55 shot almost as well with 5744, again shot breech-seated.

I have since pretty much focussed on 22 rf specifically to learn to shoot offhand and to develop better shooting skills. 
When I get back to center-fire it will be with a late era Swiss martini international rifle in 7.5x55 and with 4759 loads

I still have several cans of 5744 and if I decide to start shooting buffalo matches that would be my powder choice for the 45-70

  

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Re: AA5744 vs. IMR SR-4759
Reply #10 - Mar 9th, 2013 at 2:07am
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The most accurate smokeless I have found in an original No.1 Remington rolling block .40-50 B.N. is 5744.  and this is with an NEI 275gr. bullet..the original weight for this ctg.  Yet no matter what bullet, or how hard I try..I can't get the stuff to shoot with the accuracy of other powders in the .40-70 straight or B.N.
  
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Re: AA5744 vs. IMR SR-4759
Reply #11 - Mar 9th, 2013 at 7:21am
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Could be the 40/50 Bottleneck case produces more pressure than something with straight sides and gives a better burn with the AA 5744 Speculation only

Big advantage ot 4759 or 4227 they don't need a strong bullet pull or heavy bullet to burn well.  Listen to the guys with good results in 45/70 using 3031 or RX 7 all use heavy bullets and strong crimps .

I use 4 single shot powders. Black in any of them, 4759 in the larger cases 4227 in the smaller and Unique when I want sub sonic with light bullets. Others may work well these 4 cover all requirements

Boats
  
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Re: AA5744 vs. IMR SR-4759
Reply #12 - Mar 9th, 2013 at 12:36pm
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The original 5744 that was offered was military surplus powder. Thenew XMP5744 is new manufacture. Although similiar they are not the same. The original powder for me burned cleaner in 45-70 and had better accuracy. SR4759 remains my favorite of the two.
  
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Re: AA5744 vs. IMR SR-4759
Reply #13 - Mar 10th, 2013 at 8:57am
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Both powders shoot pretty dirty at Black powder velocities. I can't say about 5744 as I tried it years ago got pretty indifferent accuracy and dropped it. 
  4759 shoots cleaner the more that you push it. It shoots pretty clean about the time that it shouldn't be shot in all but the strongest actions. However it does shoot very well in a wide range of cartridges from .32s up to the big .50s.  The fly in the ointment with 4759 is that it doesn't meter well small quantities. The .38-55 is right about on the dividing line above that it meters OK below that you need to drop short and trickle powder in to a given weight. 
MP300 is a ball powder That John Lewis and others have used with great results. It is a ball powder and meters well for best results Winchester Magnum  primers Must be used. 

40 Rod
  
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Re: AA5744 vs. IMR SR-4759
Reply #14 - Mar 10th, 2013 at 12:22pm
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40 Rod your experience with 4759 mimics some advice I got years ago from a very experienced shooter, and I quote. "If you are shooting 4759 and get a clean bore you are shooting it too HOT" I have suspected for some time that 4759 was actually a fairly fast powder. The last batch I bought was from a surplus Military ammo dealer. When I asked what his source was he replied it was salvaged from .308 Blank ammo for M14s. Now we all know that Blank ammo powder has to be capable of developing some pressure with no projectile. I use it in all my Hiwall and Borchardt rifles with stiff loads and have had no trouble. But they are robustly strong actions. The real saving is it is a bulky powder and you just cannot overload it in cases like the 32-40, 33-40,and 38-55. I am very cautious when I shoot it in my .40 and .45 caliber rifles. HTH Regards, FITZ. Smiley Addition, by not overload I meant double charge. I use 15.5 Grs in 32-40, and 18.5 in 38-55, and again 15.5 in the one 33-40 I have. FITZ.
  

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Re: AA5744 vs. IMR SR-4759
Reply #15 - Mar 10th, 2013 at 12:31pm
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I used to think 4759 was slower than 4227 however when I switched my 38/55 Club offhand match loads to 4227 (Cause I load 6x60 round boxes at a time and the 4227 measures easier) found I needed less 4227 by about a grain to shoot to the same sight settings as 4759

And agree no residue in the bore it's too hot. When I recommend 4759 to new single shot shooters all say they don't like the bore residue.  I don't think it's a problem at all.

About the only measure I have found to throw 4759 well is the Belding and Mull, and found it out after I had switched to the Harrels measure & 4227  Lot of trouble to change powders and am getting good results with 4227 will stay with it. Still think 4759 is more accurage and for sure the better powder for larger cases like 45/70 no doubt due to it's speed.  Real problem with the very large cases is getting adequate burn in a large space with light or little bullet pull.


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Re: AA5744 vs. IMR SR-4759
Reply #16 - Mar 10th, 2013 at 1:57pm
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I have ONE lyman 55 that throws 4759 very well. Few handle crunches and when I get one I throw the charge back in the hopper. To eliminate hangups I have taken the drop tube and with a needle file changed the hole from round to oblong this has completely eliminated hangups. I shoot a 40-70 SS Borchardt with only 15 grs of 4759 but have to positively hold the rifle vertical and slap it to settle the powder to the bottom and then bring it down to battery carefully to shoot, this by the way is strictly a 200 Yd load. But from the bench it has shot 100 Yd bench groups of 10 that can be covered with a quarter.
The loads I shoot all leave a few granules of unburnt powder. Folks get all excited about unburnt powder as if it was going to be some kind of obstruction in the barrel. Do they really believe that 5 or 6 granules of powder can be an obstruction? They are blown out way ahead of the bullet. Well, all for now. Regards, FITZ. Smiley
  

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Re: AA5744 vs. IMR SR-4759
Reply #17 - Mar 10th, 2013 at 3:18pm
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Fitz 

I think any load is going to do best if settled the same way every shot. Some more sensitive to it than others but all less than case full loads it makes a difference

It's real important to mount the gun same way every time anyway which counters the powder sensitivity to position.   

Baseball pitcher Golfer hitting a ball. Casting a Fly rod wind up consistency is key to hitting the target, Rifle no different.

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Re: AA5744 vs. IMR SR-4759
Reply #18 - Mar 11th, 2013 at 11:37pm
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I load 4759 using an AMT/Lyman Auto Scale. It is a power trickler with an Ohaus beam scale. It works great with coarse powders.
4759 burns much cleaner than 5744 but part of that is due to how I load it. My rifles are highwalls and I use heavy bullets. I increase the load until the unburned grains disappear. Based on the drop that is with about 1100 fps with a 500 grain bullet in a 45-70 and 400 in a 40-65.
i don't think unburned grains get blown out, they just get ran over by the bullet. When you get rid of the unburned grains accuracy improves.
« Last Edit: Mar 11th, 2013 at 11:46pm by ireload2 »  
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Re: AA5744 vs. IMR SR-4759
Reply #19 - Mar 13th, 2013 at 2:04pm
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I have only shot a relatively small number of 38-55s, but with the 45-70, I've shot enough 4759 to know it works well.  I still don't have any serious accuracy loads developed for it, though.

In the 32-40, 4759 has long been my go-to powder, but unlike Brother FITZ, I shoot it in VERRY light loads.  I  have shot 13.6 grains for years (both fixed and breech seated) with very good results for over 20 years.  I found that a fairly stiff load of 4227 worked better in fixed loads, though.

Froggie
  
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Re: AA5744 vs. IMR SR-4759
Reply #20 - Mar 13th, 2013 at 3:56pm
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Froggy I am helping a new shooter with his Original High Wall in 32/40  Yesterday all the 4227 was gone off Green Top's shelves I bought him a jug of 4759.

Will use a bit less than your 4759 recipe as a starting load

Boats
  
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Re: AA5744 vs. IMR SR-4759
Reply #21 - Mar 14th, 2013 at 10:47pm
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Boats, my charge is a starting load!  Note that FITZ is shooting almost 2 grains more in his 32/40, so mine really should be safe for any solid high wall.  I've used it for literally hundreds of rounds through that original high wall of mine that I think you've seen a time or two, with bullets from 165 to 200 grains.  I very seldom give loads, but that is one I feel very safe to "prescribe!" Cheesy

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Re: AA5744 vs. IMR SR-4759
Reply #22 - Mar 15th, 2013 at 6:41am
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I went through all the old manuals last night. Both Matten and Sharpe have 13.2 and a little plus of 4759 for about 1425 fps in the 32/40 170 gr bullet.

Who knows I may end up using it in my 32/40.  Shelves are bare of 4227 have plenty of 4759 on hand

Boats
  
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Re: AA5744 vs. IMR SR-4759
Reply #23 - Mar 15th, 2013 at 9:45am
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Gentlemen;

Shooting Accuracy and Shooting Safety are mutually inclusive objectives; meaning to pursue accuracy at the expense of sacrificing safety, is a foolish endeavor.

The preceding posts offered in the thread all originate from our most experienced, responsible, and well grounded marksmen (Boats, Green Frog, Fitz, Etc.), so I find comfort in that offered guidance.

However, my single shot 38-55 is on a Wickliffe '76 falling block action, which has been held out by the original patent designer to be a SAAMI high pressure capable action.  Not indestructible, but high pressure capable. 

CMM
  
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Re: AA5744 vs. IMR SR-4759
Reply #24 - Mar 17th, 2013 at 8:45am
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The ease with which a measure handles 4759, I believe, is dependent on the shape of the metering chamber. Longer thinner chambers that encourage the sticks to lie flat will meter better in smaller quantities than the wider chambers. Some of the early bench rest measures that were designed for stick type powders do a better job than the more modern ones. 

40 Rod
  
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Re: AA5744 vs. IMR SR-4759
Reply #25 - Mar 17th, 2013 at 12:29pm
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40_Rod wrote on Mar 17th, 2013 at 8:45am:
The ease with which a measure handles 4759, I believe, is dependent on the shape of the metering chamber. Longer thinner chambers that encourage the sticks to lie flat will meter better in smaller quantities than the wider chambers. Some of the early bench rest measures that were designed for stick type powders do a better job than the more modern ones. 

40 Rod


Quite by accident I discovered that my Ideal #5 Measure with micrometer adjust handles the sticks of IMR 4759 pretty well (read "consistently") and since I had already bought it because it looked so cool, and since it's so important to me to look good on the bench... the rest is History!  Glad ledball provided me with a supply of old 4759 in the pale green cans and RussW hooked my up with a 6# jug.  Smiley I'll be able to shoot my 32-40 high walls until I'm old and grey... wait a minute, I am old and grey!  Shocked Well then, I'll probably be able to shoot them as long as I can still hold them up or lift them onto the bags!  Cheesy

One of the strong points of 4759 is its lack of position sensitivity.  Another is its burning curve which allows a more steady push rather than the sudden "slam" of some powders upon ignition.  Also it's bulky enough that a true double charge is highly unlikely.  What's not to like about it?  Wink

Froggie
  
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Re: AA5744 vs. IMR SR-4759
Reply #26 - Mar 19th, 2013 at 9:52am
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I have gotten very poor results with 5744 in 45-70 and larger (don' own anything smaller). I now use this powder exclusively for duplex loads with BP in the summer when the temps cause the barrel to dry quickly.

SS
  

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