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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Bertram brass annealing??? (Read 11550 times)
QuestionableMaynard8130
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Bertram brass annealing???
Jun 12th, 2012 at 9:46pm
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I just received my first (of 3) boxes of Bertram 9.5x47R brass from Graf's

I know that in the past Bertram brass had a reputation for splitting, at least in the smaller cases.    This is a short-bodied long necked nominal 35 cal case based on a 11mm mauser-type case.  The neck and shoulder combined are nearly the same length as the body.  I am concerned with case failure and am wondering if Bertram has solved their problem or if I need to anneal the cases myself. These case do not show any discoloration in the neck or shoulder that I associate with annealing.

Do Bertram cases split in the neck, the shoulder or the body?   
I know there are different methods of annealing used by members.  I have been shooting and reloading for close to 50 years and never had to anneal a case---yet.   I am trying to understand how much of the case needs to be annealed.
  

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frnkeore
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Re: Bertram brass annealing???
Reply #1 - Jun 13th, 2012 at 12:00am
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If you notice, most domestic brass is anealed back to the shoulder area. I'd recomend that you try that first with ten or less. Shoot them a few times each and see how it goes.

From how your discribing the neck and shoulder, I wouldn't go to much farther back w/o standing the base in water.

Frank
  

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QuestionableMaynard8130
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Re: Bertram brass annealing???
Reply #2 - Jun 13th, 2012 at 8:02am
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With the short body that makes sense, but how do I get an even heat?  Some methods call for holding and twirling the case with your fingers to get even heat.  Or is it even really neccessary since brass is a pretty efficient conductor?
  

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JLouis
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Re: Bertram brass annealing???
Reply #3 - Jun 13th, 2012 at 8:31am
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DW I get my lead pot up to casting temperature, lightly lube the inside of neck so the alloy does not stick, insert the case to the desired depth until it gets to hot to hold, then drop it on a damp rag and roll it around. Using this process makes it virtually impossible to over anneal of which can become extremely dangerous.

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John Boy
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Re: Bertram brass annealing???
Reply #4 - Jun 13th, 2012 at 8:52am
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With a propane torch and in low light, hold the rim with the thumb & index finger.  Spin (rotate) the case with the flame at the seating depth of the bullet until the brass turns a dark straw or bluish green color.  The color indicates the brass has been heated to 625 - 650 degrees.  Air cool the brass 

Unlike steel, which will be made harder when it is cooled rapidly, brass is virtually unaffected when it is rapidly cooled. Annealing brass and suddenly quenching it in water will have no measurable effect on the brass
  
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QuestionableMaynard8130
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Re: Bertram brass annealing???
Reply #5 - Jun 13th, 2012 at 9:25am
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These seem like the 3 main methods used.  I even spent time on the Google/Ask search engines trying to understand it better.  Once you weed out the ads.  About 90% of the sites that linked to are shooter-related.   
{  I found one from a brass casting outfit but it was so technical that my non-math oriented brain locked up midway through the first paragraph, one was from a bell-founder another from a custom trumpet builder---fascinating but irrelevant.}
Friend Keith Foster just sent me a link that looks really informative, though the machine looks pricey unless you have to anneal a whole lot of brass on a regular basis.
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Which brings up another issue.  How often DO you have to re-anneal the necks?
  

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Fred Boulton
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Re: Bertram brass annealing???
Reply #6 - Jun 13th, 2012 at 11:51am
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It is true that brass does not harden when quenched, so you can either air cool or quench---whichever suits you. I made a little turntable which sits in an old dish, full of water up to about a quarter of an inch above the turntable. I stand the dases on the turntable, heat with a propane torch while rotating to even out the heating and when hot (green flame), I tip the cases into the water with a screwdriver.
Brass work hardens and needs to be annealed after each deep-drawing process. Bertram do not appear to anneal after the final draw, leaving the case mouth hard and brittle. I have some .300 Sherwood cases which have been reloaded about 25 times after the first anneal and have yet to have one split.
Fred
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Bertram brass annealing???
Reply #7 - Jun 13th, 2012 at 11:57am
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My Bertram cases split right in the middle on my .25-21 brass. Necks never split. They appeared to be annealed from the discoloration, but not far enough down the sidewall to prevent splitting.
  

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oldbluelight
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Re: Bertram brass annealing???
Reply #8 - Jun 13th, 2012 at 11:58am
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Re frequency: I'm shooting black powder in 45-70 and 40-65 and I anneal after each firing to make sure the cases fully expand and provide a good seal to the chamber with the relatively low pressures involved with black powder. Consistent neck tension is also important and always firing an annealed case assures that. So the answer to how often will depend on the purpose you have in mind. Extending case life - perhaps every 5 to 10 loadings depending on cartridge intensity and resizing method (neck v full length); removing  variables that can affect accuracy when using BP -- every firing. 
I use a Lee Power Trimmer shell holder chucked in a cordless drill to hold the case spinning in a propane torch flame for about 5 sec. which on these cases produces the color change John Boy cites. Cases are then air cooled in a case drying rack.
  
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Irascible
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Re: Bertram brass annealing???
Reply #9 - Jun 13th, 2012 at 2:04pm
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I've put upwards of 15 firings through my Bertram 35 WCF cases with no problem what so ever.  But, annealing is always good for saving cases. I think every firing is a bit excessive, but if it works for you and you have the time, have at it.
I have a Ken Light rig and before that I used a Hornady rig (MUCH CHEAPER). The Ken Light is a bit of trouble getting the torches set up at the correct angle which is a problem only if you are constantly working on different cases. It is very fast once set up. The Hornady rig is the easiest to use, it is similar to spinning the cases in the Lee holder but easier to get the cases in and out without burning your fingers. Hornady uses TempaLaq (sp?) to check heat applied.
  
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ron
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Re: Bertram brass annealing???
Reply #10 - Jun 13th, 2012 at 3:00pm
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J Lewis. When you said lube the inside of the neck. What do you recommend for lube?

ron
  
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JLouis
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Re: Bertram brass annealing???
Reply #11 - Jun 13th, 2012 at 3:22pm
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Ron being that my lube pot is right next to the casting pot I just started using it. A very light film of the hardened lube applied with a Q-Tip has worked for me.

J.Louis
  

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QuestionableMaynard8130
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Re: Bertram brass annealing???
Reply #12 - Jun 13th, 2012 at 4:23pm
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does it smoke much, or is it such a thin film that it doesn't matter?  My casting area is in the basement, ventilated, but also w/smoke detectors.
  

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JLouis
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Re: Bertram brass annealing???
Reply #13 - Jun 13th, 2012 at 6:13pm
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Not that I have noticed DW, you don't use that much.
Mould prep should work just as well if not better if you are concerned about smoke.

J.Louis
  

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Jeff_Schultz
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Re: Bertram brass annealing???
Reply #14 - Jun 13th, 2012 at 8:56pm
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I would take one case and shoot it a few times before I decided I had a problem.
I have a box of 25-21 Bertram with one case out of it that I have shot 3-4 hundred times with no problems.
  

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