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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Ringing the chamber? (Read 19865 times)
QuestionableMaynard8130
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Re: Ringing the chamber?
Reply #15 - Dec 25th, 2011 at 11:59am
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I think that some of the early smaller bore (sub .35 bore cartridges)  BP shooters have used a duplex charge,  thats why ideal/Lyman made that 2 chamber measure.  I believe that the 2 or 3 grains of the "starter" powder helps get the fire going quicker and hotter so that the main charge burns more completely and gives less fouling. Of course the more gentlemanly pace of most schuetzen matches allowed time to clean guns, and have a sandwich and a beer between shots
  

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westerner
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Re: Ringing the chamber?
Reply #16 - Dec 26th, 2011 at 12:37am
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I think the Ideal #6 measure was made to throw BP from the small chamber first, originally.  BP was used to help the weak primers of that time, ignite the new harder to ignite smokeless powders. 

I've used duplex loads in 32/40 and 38/55. Accuracy is almost the same.  Nice, not to have to use a blow tube.  
There are so many different rules in use out there, I just stick with the straight BP for BP matches.  Might even use it for OH matches when I dont need to. Might be a good way to get rid of extra ammo.  It's fun to get the smokeless only folks gagging and coughing and holding their ears.   Grin


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Re: Ringing the chamber?
Reply #17 - Dec 26th, 2011 at 9:10am
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I've never heard that explanation before on the ideal #6.  In Pope's pamphlet he says the reverse.  He was talking about his own powder measure of course!!
  

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Re: Ringing the chamber?
Reply #18 - Dec 26th, 2011 at 9:26am
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westerner wrote on Dec 26th, 2011 at 12:37am:
I think the Ideal #6 measure was made to throw BP from the small chamber first, originally.  BP was used to help the weak primers of that time, ignite the new harder to ignite smokeless powders. 

I've used duplex loads in 32/40 and 38/55. Accuracy is almost the same.  Nice, not to have to use a blow tube.  
There are so many different rules in use out there, I just stick with the straight BP for BP matches.  Might even use it for OH matches when I dont need to. Might be a good way to get rid of extra ammo.  It's fun to get the smokeless only folks gagging and coughing and holding their ears.   Grin


                     Joe.  Smiley


Joe, 

     I have seen this reported by a couple of folks and even seen it in print in one old Ideal handbook, IIRC, but most of the other sources have had it that the duplex technique was used to set off the BP more cleanly.  I have no experience with, nor solid documentation of early smokeless powders being hard to ignite... in fact, quite the opposite seems to be the case as there was a great deal of concern over blowing up guns from the sudden pressure spikes new "white powders" generated.  I have to wonder whether there was a misprint in some early text and it has been simply repeated and propagated... not sayin', just wonderin'.   Huh

IIRC, the Pope duplex was one of the first measures of its type and it certainly used smokeless as the priming charge and black as the main, so I have to doubt that the first manufactured measures would be specifically designed to do the opposite.  Ideal even made a duplex measure for shotshells, the #4.  Can you imagine trying to make charges in those old Damascus steel barrels burn faster and more aggressively?  Shocked

Anyway, I hope everyone had a Merry Christmas and a Happy Hanukkah, and that the New Year will be a good one with lots of shooting for all of us!  Cheesy

Froggie
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Ringing the chamber?
Reply #19 - Dec 26th, 2011 at 11:14am
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Wouldn't it be correct either way on the #6? All that makes it throw one or the other powders first is which side you put that powder into.
  

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Re: Ringing the chamber?
Reply #20 - Dec 26th, 2011 at 11:36am
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Using smokeless in the small chamber makes a lot of sense in the #6 thats for sure. 

I have an old Ideal book here somewhere. It has instructions for the #6.  Read it once but cant remember if it mentioned powders.  Will look at it again.   


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Re: Ringing the chamber?
Reply #21 - Dec 27th, 2011 at 8:26am
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I have also seen loads that used a small amount 5 or 6 grains of black under a charge of early smokeless. Early primers were designed to set off black powder and often gave indifferent results with early smokeless. 
Our primers of today are much stronger than the old primers. That is why you will see occasionally a load that calls for a priming charge of Black.

40 Rod
  
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Re: Ringing the chamber?
Reply #22 - Dec 27th, 2011 at 10:11am
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This is relevant to a problem that we have here in the UK: we can only shoot / own very long barrelled revolvers other than muzzle loaders. This, in turn gives rise to the need for muzzle loaders that can be shot on an ordinary indoor range: in other words, smokeless muzzle loading revolvers. There is a small, specialist group of gunsmiths who produce these, but they cannot use the ordinary no11 caps which are more or less standard for the black powder muzzle loaders. Percussion caps will not ignite smokeless powders reliably and so solutions have evolved using primers, often the shotgun battery-cup primer.
I can easily believe that 19th century primers would not function with early smokless powders, giving rise to the need for a BP "starter" charge.
Fred
  
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Re: Ringing the chamber?
Reply #23 - Dec 27th, 2011 at 1:15pm
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In one of the most recent versions of the SPG BP loading primer there is some space devoted to the 32-40 using BP. Might want to look that over. 

I have done a bit of duplexing for 45-100 and 45-110 using PPBs. Worked well to virtually eliminate fouling so I was able to sometimes shoot 20 rds accurately without wiping. Most BPCR shooters though consider it sacrilege to do so.

As to ringing a chamber, I have heard that any wad may be cause for ringing a chamber in the large cases BP using smokeless since they can shift around. Once I inadvertently loaded some 50-70 using smokelesss and wads. When I realized it later I took them all apart just to be on the safe side.

Using straight Swiss 1.5F I can shoot 10rds of 50-70 without blowing or wiping. Using Goex/Schuetzen though is a problem. FWIW if you look closely at the Schuetzen label you will see it is made by Wano in Germany. Wano is considered the lowest of the low in Europe and only used for cannons and signal guns.

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Re: Ringing the chamber?
Reply #24 - Dec 27th, 2011 at 1:55pm
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From a competition point of view no good reason to duplex. BPCS requires straight Black smokeless is not allowed.  Schuetzen generally allows any powder so no need to mix Black with Smokeless.

Only good reason to Duplex is you want to Duplex which is good enough for me.

Boats
  
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Re: Ringing the chamber?
Reply #25 - Dec 27th, 2011 at 2:13pm
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Here at Jefferson State Schuetzen Society in Oregon. We started a match about 3 shoots ago that allow duplex BP loads. It is traditional and can be fun. Your club just has to put a match in the schedule and that's is all it takes. ASSRA's BP rules still allow 15% smokeless.

Back when we had two ASSRA clubs here in Oregon, we had about four matches a year that had duplex BP matches. Plus, there used to be a muzzle loading club called Western States that had a cartridge, duplex match.

Frank
  

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JLouis
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Re: Ringing the chamber?
Reply #26 - Dec 27th, 2011 at 2:33pm
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Frank do the Jefferson State Schuetzen Society matches take place at Grant's Pass Oregon?

J.Louis
  

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Re: Ringing the chamber?
Reply #27 - Dec 27th, 2011 at 3:06pm
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Yes, John. Tony and Dave and I are calling to you to come up Smiley

4th Sat, March to Oct.

Frank
  

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Re: Ringing the chamber?
Reply #28 - Dec 27th, 2011 at 3:22pm
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Thank you Frank I will have to take you up on it one day. 

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Re: Ringing the chamber?
Reply #29 - Dec 28th, 2011 at 9:04am
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Wow! Didn't think that I'd start all this with a question about ringing a chamber, but happy that it did. I like listening to all of you and learning more. 
  Monday I did some plinking with the Stevens 44 in 32-40. Had a batch of Lyman 319247 bullets that were slightly flawed and thought they would be just fine to do some plinking with. Loaded them in un-sized cases over 12.5 grains of IMR4227 and a standard Federal 210 primer. One of the things that I like about the Stevens 44 is the way the breach block rotates into position when the breach is closed. It cames the cartridge into the chamber. With the bullets finger seated long in the case they are seated deeper into the case as they make contact with the lead ramps to the rifling. The ammo that I have assembled using this method shoots very well. It's not as accurate as breach seating but as a form of fixed ammo its is A-OK. There were 24 rounds of ammo loaded and shot Monday while plinking at ranges from 25 yards to 200 yards, and I was delighted to see how well the load and rifle shot. Small steel targets the size of a pack of cigarettes were used at different distances. I'd switch form one range to another using the pre-recorded elevation settings that I have established for this loading. By the way my 44 it topped with a 12X Unertl 1.5" scope. That makes the serious testing and hitting small targets a bunch easier for me. 
   Again I want to say thanks to all of you that have responded to my questions. You are a big help and I enjoy learning for all of you.    Sendaro
  
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