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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Rem-Umc 22 Caliber Palma Lead Bullets (Read 36615 times)
H. M. Pope
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Rem-Umc 22 Caliber Palma Lead Bullets
Nov 20th, 2011 at 10:22pm
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Hi All,
Does anyone know anything about these 22 Caliber Rem-Umc Palma Bullets. As you can see they came 100 to the box and were not lubed, they are in like new condition, does anyone have  load data for such bullets.   

I'm thinking they may be from the 1920's, 30's because of the box style but am not sure.
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   H. M. Pope

  
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frnkeore
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Re: Rem-Umc 22 Caliber Palma Lead Bullets
Reply #1 - Nov 20th, 2011 at 10:51pm
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I can't answer your question but, by that box, it would seem that at whatever time frame it came from, it must have been common to reload the 22 rim fire ammo.

Frank
  

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H. M. Pope
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Re: Rem-Umc 22 Caliber Palma Lead Bullets
Reply #2 - Nov 20th, 2011 at 10:57pm
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That's what I'm thinking Frank, but I've never seen load data for 22 LR.
Regards
  H. M. P.
  
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BP
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Re: Rem-Umc 22 Caliber Palma Lead Bullets
Reply #3 - Nov 21st, 2011 at 3:20am
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I suspect the availability and loading of empty primed 22 rimfire cases used to be more common than most of us realize. 

The 1958 Lyman Handbook of Cast Bullets has a note regarding mould 225353 - "Designed for .22 rimfire. Casts .223"

  

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Mike Gish
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Re: Rem-Umc 22 Caliber Palma Lead Bullets
Reply #4 - Nov 21st, 2011 at 8:04am
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There is a recent posting on the WSA site about loading 22rf cases, apparently someone makes a run of primed 22 cases every once in a while for those that have the urge.
  
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John Boy
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Re: Rem-Umc 22 Caliber Palma Lead Bullets
Reply #5 - Nov 21st, 2011 at 11:01am
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H.M. ... These look familiar?
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They are copies of the original UMC bullets except for the hollow bases.  We had David Mos make up the custom molds for the Stepping Back In Time project - reloading 22LR rounds with black powder.  They are 45grs, not 40grs

As for your Rem-UMC Palma bullets, I'm going to guess they could have been used by the gallery shooters of the era.  Loaded as either fixed cartridge or breech seated, charged with either BP or du Pont's Lesmoke or King's Semi-Smokeless powders.  I tried to find a smokeless powder charge for 22's -  couldn't find any.  Probably because reloading 22's was uncommon.  Plus I have never read that primed empty cases could be purchased back in the old days 

The hand written word 'Palma' on the 22 box doesn't 'connect' with the original Palma matches that used large bore rifles, officially called Palma matches in 1877 ... starting from the Creedmoor match in 1873 

Rem-UMC black powder rounds were also made with 45gr bullets.  I have a few bullets that a friend gave me when he disassembled original rounds - which was the start of the BP reloading project that we are doing
  
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frnkeore
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Re: Rem-Umc 22 Caliber Palma Lead Bullets
Reply #6 - Nov 21st, 2011 at 12:04pm
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John Boy,
If you want a smokeless load, try 1.0 to 1.5 gr B'eye. My best BSed loads (.410) were at 1.5 to 1.7 gr.

Frank
  

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tim_s
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Re: Rem-Umc 22 Caliber Palma Lead Bullets
Reply #7 - Nov 21st, 2011 at 12:25pm
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I'd tend to believe these were designed for breech seating. The photos are a bit small but look at the bases of the slugs, they appear the same diameter as the drive band, not reduced which would be required to seat in a case and allow proper chambering.
  

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BP
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Re: Rem-Umc 22 Caliber Palma Lead Bullets
Reply #8 - Nov 21st, 2011 at 2:39pm
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tim_s,

May just be the difference in our eyes , but I believe I see heels on the Rem bullets. I'm concentrating on the 3 that are in line at 9 o'clock from the "Palma", and at the one directly below the lower left corner of the lid. 

  

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tim_s
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Re: Rem-Umc 22 Caliber Palma Lead Bullets
Reply #9 - Nov 21st, 2011 at 2:59pm
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BP wrote on Nov 21st, 2011 at 2:39pm:
tim_s,

May just be the difference in our eyes , but I believe I see heels on the Rem bullets. I'm concentrating on the 3 that are in line at 9 o'clock from the "Palma", and at the one directly below the lower left corner of the lid. 




Look at the  nicely highlighted slug in the top right corner of the box, nothing behind it to muddy up it's profile. Does'nt look to be reduced diameter. Mr.Pope what say you???
  

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John Boy
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Re: Rem-Umc 22 Caliber Palma Lead Bullets
Reply #10 - Nov 21st, 2011 at 3:07pm
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The UMC bullets in H.M's picture are heeled with a hollow base.  The one with the HB showing in the lower left shows the heel clearly.  These UMC heels are 0.210

And the heads pulled from UMC loaded BP rounds are the same -- 0.210 with a HB except they are 45grs for LR
  
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H. M. Pope
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Re: Rem-Umc 22 Caliber Palma Lead Bullets
Reply #11 - Nov 21st, 2011 at 11:39pm
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I'll try an take some better photos tomorrow. They are heeled with a hollow base, the heels are .210, the body of the bullet is .225, and the length is .467. I haven't weighted them but I don't doubt that they are as marked on the box, 40 Gr.

John Boy, you say that you have never read that primed empty cases could be purchased back in the old days, if that's so then what would these bullets be used for ?. I cant believe that they would be used for any kind of Center Fire case because of how soft the lead is.

I thought the word 'Palma' on the box was for a 22 RF match because I have a few box's  of Rem, 22 Match Ammo called Palma Match, was thinking that maybe there was a Palma Match event for both 22 RF and Center Fire ?.
Am going to try an up load a photo of the Rem 22 Palma Match box.
  Regards
    H. M. Pope

 


  
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tim_s
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Re: Rem-Umc 22 Caliber Palma Lead Bullets
Reply #12 - Nov 22nd, 2011 at 10:39am
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Got to a better monitor later in the day and can make out the heeled slugs. Sorry for the distraction.
  

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Fred Boulton
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Re: Rem-Umc 22 Caliber Palma Lead Bullets
Reply #13 - Nov 22nd, 2011 at 11:33am
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There was once a centrefire .22---identical in every way to the rimfire case, but with a primer.
Fred
  
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Re: Rem-Umc 22 Caliber Palma Lead Bullets
Reply #14 - Nov 22nd, 2011 at 12:13pm
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A long time ago, I was given these tin by an older shooter.  They are Fiocchi .224 bullets imported by Alcan.  The lead bullets are hollow point and have a heel. The copperclad are round nose and also have a heel.  I do not know if Alcan used Fiocchi bullets in their .22 ammo.
Kurt
  

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