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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Rem-Umc 22 Caliber Palma Lead Bullets (Read 36667 times)
frnkeore
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Re: Rem-Umc 22 Caliber Palma Lead Bullets
Reply #45 - Nov 25th, 2011 at 12:34am
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Dear Mr Pope,
You really need to know what your talking about if you intend to defame me. I ran matches back in thoughs days and I still have the rule book in effect at the time that I won the matches.

Article VI, Section 2, Ammunition.

2.1
Bullets must be lead or lead alloy with no metallic gas check,or half jackets and may be loaded from the breech or muzzle. Paper patches may be used.

2.2
Wads may be of card (paper), felt, cork, wax,graphite, or similaur materials. Kapoc, Cream of Wheat, cornmeal or similuar materials may be used as fillers.

2.3
Fixed ammunition may be used, providing providing the components are in accord with Rules 2.1 and 2.2.


Section 3, Powder charge.
3.1
Black powder or smokeless powders or any safe combination of powders may be used.

Section 5. Classification of rifles.
5.0
Caliber is definded as the maximum diameter of a slug that has exited the muzzle of the rifle after having been in contact with all areas of all rifling grooves.

5.1
Centerfire rifles of less than .400 caliber are designated Class I rifles. Centerfire rifles of .400 caliber or larger are designated Class II rifles.

5.2
Rimfire rifles are classified seperately and do not compete with the centerfire rifles.

That is the totallity of the rules governing ALL single shot rifles and ammunition (including 22rf) at the time that I was shooting and won thoughs matches.

I can photograph all the pages of that rule book if you like.

Frank
  

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QuestionableMaynard8130
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Re: Rem-Umc 22 Caliber Palma Lead Bullets
Reply #46 - Nov 25th, 2011 at 6:56am
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It looks like this is a historically interesting and informative thread that is turning into a yet another tempest in a pi$$-pot.

Let me make an attempt to simplify and clarify.  The ASSRA Schuetzenmeister ruled some years back that only factory loaded unaltered 22 s/l/lr rimfire cartridges are allowed in ASSRA matches.   This was a schuetzenmeister's ruling  It is not in a rule book.

IF at another range at a different time Breech seating 22 rf ammo was permitted by the local schuetzenmeister it would have been legal at that range at that time.  it was a local judgement and not "cheating" there.     End of argument---please! Eat some more turkey and chill out!

In general with written rules,  if it is not prohibited, it is permitted.  However the local match schuetzenmeister can and does make interpretations in gray areas, rules on safety, fair play etc etc.

IN MY OPINION,  Until primed empty cases become commercially available on a much wider basis I think that reloading the 22rf for use in ASSRA matches raises legitimate questions of "fair-play" (because of a lack of general availability) and "safety" (because of  the risk of mishandling by less experienced shooters).  For those reasons I consider the ASSRA schuetzenmeister's ruling not to permit anything except unaltered factory 22 s/l/lr RF ammo in ASSRA 22 rf matches to be a reasonable one

I DO think its an interesting subject for experimentation and of historical interest.

I also recognize a gray area exists in how the ASSRA schuetzenmeister's local match ruling is applied on other club ranges.

If you think that this or any other Match or match equipment rule need to be addressed in the handbook; the proper procedure would be to submit a written request/proposal to the BOD for referral to the rules committee for discussion and possible action.  However, logically, something that affects only half a dozen or fewer shooters would need wider support t
  

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ledball
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Re: Rem-Umc 22 Caliber Palma Lead Bullets
Reply #47 - Nov 25th, 2011 at 8:12am
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I'm with 38-cal here, if the NEW rule book does not rule against breechseating 22RF, then its legal.  ledball
  
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John Boy
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Re: Rem-Umc 22 Caliber Palma Lead Bullets
Reply #48 - Nov 25th, 2011 at 11:10am
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NRA match regulations.  Notice the difference.  There is no wording in Cowboy Lever Action that precludes breech seating black powder rounds but Smallbore Silhouette with the word factory would rule out breech seating and also black powder rounds - there are no factory made ones ...

One would have a better chance winning the Mega Million than to try and convince the Committee to change the rules to make both discipline's ammunition the same (smokeless & Black powder) plus allow breech seating

3.1.3 Cowboy Lever Action Silhouette Rifle
Ammunition may be loaded with smokeless or black powder, using jacketed or cast bullets, with or without gas checks

3.2 Smallbore Silhouette Rifle - Identical to the description of the High Power Silhouette Rifle, except that the rifle shall be chambered for only factory loaded .22 caliber short, long or long rifle rimfire cartridges.
  
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H. M. Pope
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Re: Rem-Umc 22 Caliber Palma Lead Bullets
Reply #49 - Nov 25th, 2011 at 2:32pm
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[quote author=594D51545A504D5A3F0 link=1321845764/45#45 date=1322199250]Dear Mr Pope,
You really need to know what your talking about if you intend to defame me. I ran matches back in thoughs days and I still have the rule book in effect at the time that I won the matches.

Frank,
Why cant you get it into your head that I don't care. It's not my problem, it's yours. I don't have a problem with any of the rules ASSRA has as long as there the same for everyone. 

I am not trying to "defame"  you, your defaming yourself. I don't care how many matches you have run, I don't care how many match you have won, it makes no difference to me. I did not say that you were a cheater, never even thought that, your the one that brought that up. 

In fact I even said that maybe back in the 90's when you did the shooting there was no ruling on it. 

It seems that if guys don't agree with what you say or the way you think your just not happy.  It's not that important, let it be, go drink some wine, go do anything, but please stop your winning. It's a damn shame that you cant accept things the way they are. I'm not going to post on this subject any more, I'm done with it, you win. You have driven me away from this, and have probably driven off a lot of others, good for you. Now you can set at your computer and talk to yourself.
  H. M. Pope
  
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frnkeore
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Re: Rem-Umc 22 Caliber Palma Lead Bullets
Reply #50 - Nov 25th, 2011 at 2:58pm
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Dear Mr Pope,
I am NOT happy with anyone saying that I BENT the rules or some else BENT the rules for me!!!

Those were YOUR words! I asked that you retract them, not apologize, just that you retract them. They were aimed directly at me and ARE NOT true.

Frank
  

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KAF
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Re: Rem-Umc 22 Caliber Palma Lead Bullets
Reply #51 - Nov 26th, 2011 at 7:20am
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Revised by the ASSRA Board of Directors†
June, 2010

Section 1.13†† .22 Rimfire Rifles
.22 caliber rimfire rifles are classified separately and do not compete with the centerfire rifles. Only .22 Short, Long or Long rifle cartridges shall be in this category.



Read the rules and understand.


« Last Edit: Nov 26th, 2011 at 7:56am by »  
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John Boy
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Re: Rem-Umc 22 Caliber Palma Lead Bullets
Reply #52 - Nov 26th, 2011 at 11:14am
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Based on the regulation - there is no wording that precludes: black powder & smokeless reloads, plus no wording that these rounds rounds cannot be breech seated ... Correct?
If so, I believe this is good
  
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KAF
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Re: Rem-Umc 22 Caliber Palma Lead Bullets
Reply #53 - Nov 26th, 2011 at 11:44am
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Section 2.01†† Bullets
Bullets must be of lead or lead alloy with no metallic gas checks, half jackets or other metallic jackets. These may be loaded from either the muzzle or the breech and may be paper patched at the shooter’s option.

Section 2.02†† Wads
Wads may be used at the shooter’s option. These may be of card (paper), felt, cork, wax, graphite or any similar non-metallic materials. Kapok, corn meal, Cream of Wheat and/or similar materials may be used as fillers. Cotton and paper are flammable and should be used only when there is NO danger of fire in the area. The use of these materials is not recommended, but not forbidden. Shooters are reminded that any of the above mentioned wads or fillers may under some conditions of loading and type of powder, damage a barrel, particularly possible old soft steel barrels.


†Section 2.03      Fixed Ammunition
Fixed ammunition may be used at the shooter’s option, or when required for certain matches, providing the components are in accord with the rules in Sections 2.01 and 2.02.

Section 3.0†† Powder Charge
Any safe combination of black powder, black powder substitutes and/or smokeless powder may be used. The determination of “safe” is the responsibility of the shooter and/or his gunsmith.

  
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fallingblock
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Re: Rem-Umc 22 Caliber Palma Lead Bullets
Reply #54 - Nov 26th, 2011 at 12:01pm
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The only board decision was that competitors may not dismantle .22RF on the range.  It was felt that it could be a safety issue if bullets were pulled on the line. It is not in the Rule Book as it was viewed as a range safety rule.
I am sure the board will be revisiting this but feel that as both bullets and empty cases were available for many years, and we have a tradition of experimenting it is a nonissue. 
Reloaded or breech seating .22RF are not prohibited by the ASSRA Rule Book published in 2010. 
Cheers,
Laurie
  

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Laurie
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ledball
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Re: Rem-Umc 22 Caliber Palma Lead Bullets
Reply #55 - Nov 26th, 2011 at 2:16pm
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I think it was a very good decision by the BOD's  to permit  breechseating 22RF ammo, if experimenting is disallowed in castbullet shooting something is lost.  I thank the BOD for their decision.  ledball
  
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frnkeore
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Re: Rem-Umc 22 Caliber Palma Lead Bullets
Reply #56 - Nov 26th, 2011 at 4:51pm
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Yes, thank you, it is truly appreciated.

Frank
  

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Re: Rem-Umc 22 Caliber Palma Lead Bullets
Reply #57 - Nov 26th, 2011 at 5:33pm
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Very good !!!!!   the gray areas appear to be clarified.  Perhaps the BOD can consolidate and formalize it.   And maybe someone can work on the ammo companies to make primed 22 rf cases more commonly available

Now lets find us another topic to haggle over, in a gentlemanly manner Cheesy
  

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John Boy
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Re: Rem-Umc 22 Caliber Palma Lead Bullets
Reply #58 - Nov 26th, 2011 at 7:46pm
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KAF - Thanks for the details.
Smiley Paper patched 22LR's!  Very interesting!

DWS, I have contacted 3 ammunition vendors so far asking for empty primed cases to be sold as a stock item.  ArmsCor - yes, but the order has to be 500,000 cases and they don't want to carry them in inventory.  The other 2 companies - no, legal liability.  Afraid some yo-yo would pack the case to the mouth with nitro based powder.  I sent a mail to another vendor and have not heard back from them

I believe the only want it's going to happen is associations and their members call & write
« Last Edit: Nov 26th, 2011 at 7:52pm by »  
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frnkeore
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Re: Rem-Umc 22 Caliber Palma Lead Bullets
Reply #59 - Nov 26th, 2011 at 8:26pm
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John Boy,
Was any of the company's that you contacted CCI? I had my best results with them. If not, I'll send something to them.

Frank
  

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