Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5 Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Rem-Umc 22 Caliber Palma Lead Bullets (Read 36624 times)
BP
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 8039
Location: Westside
Joined: Aug 27th, 2006
Re: Rem-Umc 22 Caliber Palma Lead Bullets
Reply #15 - Nov 22nd, 2011 at 2:49pm
Print Post  
Quote:
There was once a centrefire .22---identical in every way to the rimfire case, but with a primer.


Fred, 

Are you thinking of the 22 Maynard Extra Long Centerfire cartridge? If so, from my tinkering, it's more like a reloadable 22 Win Mag. 

  

There are three kinds of men: The ones that learn by reading, the few who learn by observation, and the rest who have to pee on the electric fence and find out for themselves.
Proud Noodlehead
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
38_Cal
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 2255
Location: Montezuma, Iowa
Joined: Apr 27th, 2005
Re: Rem-Umc 22 Caliber Palma Lead Bullets
Reply #16 - Nov 22nd, 2011 at 4:31pm
Print Post  
Or the 5.75 Velo Dog... Smiley

David
  

David Kaiser
Montezuma, IA
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
John Boy
Ex Member


Re: Rem-Umc 22 Caliber Palma Lead Bullets
Reply #17 - Nov 22nd, 2011 at 7:24pm
Print Post  
5.75 Velo-Dog?  Could be - the round was centerfire

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

I sure hope the Fiocchi copper clad heads shot better than some copper clads that were given to me through the 'back door' of a current ammo manufacturer! 
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
John Boy
Ex Member


Re: Rem-Umc 22 Caliber Palma Lead Bullets
Reply #18 - Nov 22nd, 2011 at 7:42pm
Print Post  
This box format was introduced by Remington in 1928. The Lesmok powder with its corrosive priming was preferred by American shooters well after the introduction of Remington's Kleanbore priming because the older powder and primer combination was found to produce better accuracy. The bottom of this box is stamped VEEZ73, indicating that the bullet finish used was a hot dip paraffin solution developed by Peters in 1934, and made available to Remington when they purchased Peters. Remington began using this bullet finish in 1935. This box format was dropped from Remington's product line in 1942. This red box is not only pretty but it is in pristine condition.    $40

So there had to be Palma Matches, starting when ... ?
The real large bore Palma matches started in 1877  but no mention I can find about 22 matches

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
H. M. Pope
Ex Member


Re: Rem-Umc 22 Caliber Palma Lead Bullets
Reply #19 - Nov 22nd, 2011 at 8:32pm
Print Post  
Very nice box John Boy.
As to them being for the 5.75 Velo-Dog, I really don't know but I believe that the Velo-Dog used a flat base no heel inside lubed bullet, these are no different than the standard heeled HB outside lubed bullet that you will find in standard 22 RF ammo.

John Boy,
I never said that there had to be Palma Matches for the 22 RF.  What I said was I "thought" the word 'Palma' on the box was for a 22 RF match because like you I have a few box's  of Rem 22 Match Ammo called "Palma Match",  and I was thinking that "maybe" there was a Palma Match event for the 22 RF.

I have no idea if there was or wasn't and if there was I have no idea when it started.

I am up loading some better photos of the base and side of the bullet.
  Regards
   H. M. Pope
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
John Boy
Ex Member


Re: Rem-Umc 22 Caliber Palma Lead Bullets
Reply #20 - Nov 22nd, 2011 at 9:44pm
Print Post  
HM - look familiar?  These are the UMC black powder loaded rounds that were dissected by w44wcf, John Kort.  It was the start of the 'Stepping Back into Time' project.  These heads are 45grs - the difference in the width of the base band and heel length vs the 40gr bullets.  Interesting that the nose on both were left the same and the back end of the bullets were changed for the weight differences 
(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

PS:  I liked the box of the Lesmoke Palma 22's so much, I bought it
Bit of history rumor:  When DuPont Lesmoke and Kings Power came on the market, the match shooters were not thrilled.  The BP rounds shot better
« Last Edit: Nov 22nd, 2011 at 10:03pm by »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BP
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 8039
Location: Westside
Joined: Aug 27th, 2006
Re: Rem-Umc 22 Caliber Palma Lead Bullets
Reply #21 - Nov 23rd, 2011 at 2:42am
Print Post  
John Boy,

Nothing against European cartridges, as I have a few stashed here and there, but I'm sorta partial to the American versions.     Wink

« Last Edit: Nov 23rd, 2011 at 2:48am by BP »  

There are three kinds of men: The ones that learn by reading, the few who learn by observation, and the rest who have to pee on the electric fence and find out for themselves.
Proud Noodlehead
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Fred Boulton
Oldtimer
*****
Offline



Posts: 801
Joined: Jan 6th, 2007
Re: Rem-Umc 22 Caliber Palma Lead Bullets
Reply #22 - Nov 23rd, 2011 at 8:51am
Print Post  
BP: The round I am thinking of was a .22 Long centre fire. I have an empty case somewhere. I was told many years ago that these were made for use in small bore conversion units to fit Webley WG revolvers.
Fred
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
H. M. Pope
Ex Member


Re: Rem-Umc 22 Caliber Palma Lead Bullets
Reply #23 - Nov 23rd, 2011 at 1:14pm
Print Post  
Hi Guys,
I used to be partial to the American 22 Ammo but now a days it's a lot easier to be in the top 10  if you use the European 22 Ammo, sorry to say that the good European match ammo just shoots much better than any American made 22 Ammo in all of my rifles. Better groups = higher scores.

In this day and age what is the purpose of loading your own 22 RF ammo ?.  It seems like a lot of work, trouble,  and cost loading your own, is there any primed match brass cases available ? are there certain events that this ammo is shot in ?. 
Has  anyone gotten it to shoot better or as good as Eley 10-X, Lapua, RWS R-100 ?. 

Or is it all just a fun thing to do ?. and if so just how accurate has anyone gotten it to shoot ?

I know, a lot of questions,  but my main interest in shooting is accuracy, and in most all of the events I shoot in you are required to use factory loaded 22 RF ammo, you cant even change the lube in some of the events, you have to shoot it as it comes out of the box. 
  Regards
   H. M. Pope
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
frnkeore
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 7650
Location: Central Point, OR 97502
Joined: Jun 16th, 2010
Re: Rem-Umc 22 Caliber Palma Lead Bullets
Reply #24 - Nov 23rd, 2011 at 4:10pm
Print Post  
To answer most of your questions........... I really can't see paying $.40 or more per shot for 22rf (you can buy 223's for that much) when it only costs about 5 to 6 cents a shot for CF. If you shoot in ASSRA matches, you can reload 22rf and shoot them BSed or fixed. You don't have to have match cases to shoot well, you can buy a brick of 22rf for $15-16 (3 cents a case) and pull the bullets in about a hour (to much work?) and you'll have almost 3 lb of lead to use and 1000 gr of powder (not necessarily to use for this application).

You can buy a good custom bullet mold for (in most cases) for less than 6 boxes (not bricks) of Eley. With those things in hand, you can "tune" your load to your gun. Not all match chambers are alike and you can even make a non match chamber shoot.

There are lots of reasons to reload the RF's (if allowed) and not many to justify not reloading them! If your a reloader, please don't restrict yourself.

Frank

  

ASSRA Member #696, ISSA Member #339
Back to top
YIMAIM  
IP Logged
 
H. M. Pope
Ex Member


Re: Rem-Umc 22 Caliber Palma Lead Bullets
Reply #25 - Nov 23rd, 2011 at 6:05pm
Print Post  

Hi Frank,
That's a very, very, nice group your showing, if that group is average I'm sure it's as good as any of the European 22 Ammo I've seen shot.

But I don't think you can use it in ASSRA events, please correct me if I'm wrong but I think I read somewhere that you must use fixed 22 RF ammo in all ASSRA events ?.

I don't mind paying for good Match Ammo, I cant afford to practice with it a lot  so I practice with ammo that's a notch or two down from the top end ammo that I'm using at the time.   

I  only shoot about five matches a year and it always seemed dumb to travel to a match with gas prices the way they are, pay the entry fee, eat on the road, and then cheat myself out of a win or place because I was trying to save a bit on a 100 rounds of ammo. 

What I'm always looking for is results on the target and I don't mind working to get it, or if I have to pay for it, I save up my pennies and pay for it. The top shooters ( the guys I'm shooting against ) are all using the good European fixed ammo, so I feel somewhat handicapped shooting low end ammo,  and no matter what I try an do, measure rims, weight the ammo, etc. I cant get the low end ammo to shoot anywhere as good as the better ammo.

I am a re-loader when it comes to CF ammo because I can load better ammo than what I can buy, but not so with 22 RF ammo, manly because most of the events I shoot will not allow anything but factory fixed ammo. 
Can you let me know what events allow re-loaded or even re-lubed 22 RF ammo.
  Regards
  H. M. Pope
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
13Echo
Ex Member


Re: Rem-Umc 22 Caliber Palma Lead Bullets
Reply #26 - Nov 23rd, 2011 at 7:48pm
Print Post  
I remember a .22 wildcat from the late 50s or early 60s called the .22 JGR.  It was essentially a centerfire .22LR.  It apparently did not last long as I only remember reading one article about it.  Field and Stream I think, maybe the Rifleman.

Would be fun to resurrect.

Jerry Liles
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
frnkeore
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 7650
Location: Central Point, OR 97502
Joined: Jun 16th, 2010
Re: Rem-Umc 22 Caliber Palma Lead Bullets
Reply #27 - Nov 23rd, 2011 at 8:27pm
Print Post  
This is the official ASSRA rules regarding 22rf.

Section 1.13: .22 Rimfire Rifles
.22 caliber rimfire rifles are classified separately and do not compete with the centerfire rifles. Only .22 Short, Long or Long rifle cartridges shall be in this category.

It says nothing about factory ammo, BSing or reloaded ammo, only the caliber of the cartridge. 

That as it should be. Our tradition is based on reloading plain based bullets and BSing is also a long time tradition. Though I've found no record of BSing 22rf's, I would find it almost unbelievable that it wasn't done at least 100 years before 1990. 

I started breech seating in ASSRA matches with that combo in 1990. I've own matches with it and I was never questions about it's legality.

It's very easy to do. The BSer is only a piece of 3/8 brass rod, to fit the chamber and engrave about .040 of the base band. The hardest part was the load. That took at least 3 weeks of testing several powders from Herco on the slow side to B'eye fast. It's actually easier to do than BSing a CF case.

Frank
  

ASSRA Member #696, ISSA Member #339
Back to top
YIMAIM  
IP Logged
 
John Boy
Ex Member


Re: Rem-Umc 22 Caliber Palma Lead Bullets
Reply #28 - Nov 23rd, 2011 at 11:24pm
Print Post  
Frank, sitting on the bench waiting for when time prevails: 50 ... 22LR - 4.5gr Swiss FFFFg cases capped with a thin hard construction paper wad.  Breech seater: brass rod & spent 22 case, measured so the Mos bullets will stick out 1/16" in the leade
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
H. M. Pope
Ex Member


Re: Rem-Umc 22 Caliber Palma Lead Bullets
Reply #29 - Nov 23rd, 2011 at 11:48pm
Print Post  
Frank,
Your correct, and I agree, the rules say "22 Short, Long or Long rifle cartridges"  the key word is cartridges, look up the word cartridges and the definition will say:

  A cartridge, also called a round of ammunition, packages the Bullet, Gunpowder, and Primer into a single metallic case. That's also considered a fixed round of ammunition.   

I would think a Match Director would agree with the definition of a cartridge as written, yes you can reload your 22 RF but you would have to shoot it as fixed ammo.

I'm still not sure it would be worth the effort for me to buy a mold, get the right lead, cast the bullets, lube them, find primed cases, load the right charge of powder, etc. etc.  I would really have to see them shoot, or at least see some consistent winning scores with reloaded 22 RF's for me take the time and spend the money to get involved in something like that.

But knowing shooters the way I do,  I think if a few of them start to shoot winning scores using reloaded  22 RF ammo I'm sure a lot of others would start doing the same thing.

I still think that if your looking for a high degree of accuracy it's hard to beat the European Match ammo. 
  Regards
    H. M. Pope
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5
Send TopicPrint