I have been doing some searching for info on the web and ran into a web site where the person seems to have refinished all of the firearms shown. Some to the point where they blued over color cased parts, stocks all varnished where they were oil finished originally. The guys web site said it all , He is a Businessman first. He had examples of guns that were very misleading, such as cut down rifles as carbines. 
Sometimes the new collectors get really burned by the snake  oil salesman. Barnum said there was a sucker born every second, but in our collective group of firearms collectors I think we all take a very dim view of unscrupulous businesses. I know I do.
So, if you are a new collector do your home work to check out just what it is that you are buying. Really read and pay attention to publications such as Flydermans guide. He explains NRA condition codes in a easy way to interpret. When dealing with Collectors weapons there is a big difference between NRA grading for these than grading for a newer type of firearm. 
But when a firearm is refinished correctly it can add to it's value. We have all seen a junker resurrected to a decent shooter and maybe a better looking example, and we all love the ones that look like they should, and hate the ones that are over buffed, chromed-[ I saw a chromed Ballard that the owner is real proud of] oh, and that was chrome, not nickel, Color case work by blow torch. I could go on but you get the point. I think refinishing a gun that is down and out on it last legs is really OK if it is done tastefully and to the original looks of what it was.  And not only the finish but the faker that cuts a rifle down to a carbine and pawns it off as such worth double what the rifle was.  The web site mentioned at the beginning had a few of those too. 
Oh, check out Bowers for guns
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Mike

Unfortunate, and when it happens it's usually to the newbie who's just getting started collecting. Once they realise they've been had a good deal of them just give up and don't collect anymore.
Those who would intentionally take advantage of buyers in gun sales are no better than pond scum. They don't care who they cheat. I think many experienced collectors begin to spot the way they word their ads, long before they spot discrepancies in the finish of the "collectable" arms they're selling.

I thought this would raise a few comments. Seems we are all on the same page here. I have seen single shots done up the same way, make a grown man cry. Chromed Ballard was just an example of the items he had. How about a PINK rifle for the wife, he had one of them too. 
Yes, his military rifles were not the normal curio and relic sort at all.  When I see stuff like he has then I start to question just how good the internals are. Makes me wonder. My first M-1 Garand was sold to me at the tender age of 14 as a real Winchester for 100.00, yea I'm that old. The dealer said it was all original 100%. I asked if I could return it if not happy same day. He said yes. I also purchased 20 rds of ammo and a clip for it. Dad and I went to the range, it jammed on every round. So dad opened it up and we saw that the only Winchester part was the action, the rest were a hodge podge of parts. And not very well done. Yes I got my money back from him and learned a very valuable lesson. From then on I took them apart right there in the guys shop before buying them. If they would not let me I did not buy it.
Now here today I can still get an auctioneer to  pull a breech block out of a ballard, an auctioneer that has never done that sort of thing before. I walked him through it and it was simple for him. He know has done this for me 4-6 times, in fact when I call he now says, yep I pulled the breech block and it is a cast/forged action. Sure changes what I'm willing to part with as far as cash goes, and when I explained that I would pay more for a forged action he was all ears.
Hope all of this helps someone in their endeavors to collect some nice items and get a good deal.
Mike

Buyers best friend is a good gun library. And looking at lots of examples before you lay down hard cash.  Had been looking at Vintage American Double Barrel Shotguns. Something I knew nothing about. 

Bought all the books first then looked at hundreds of guns before laying down hard cash. Amazing the BS out there from dealer and collectors. Bigger the house worse the baloney is.

I will say if you are a shooter and pay according to the user value re-finished guns can be good buys. Main thing is don't pay for the refinish. Most cases it ought to sell for half a good original example.

Example I saw a Baker Gun Company double perfectly re-finished and stocked in beautiful Turkish Walnut. It was a show piece. Never mind original guns were stocked in American Walnut.  Somebody spent 2-3 thousand dollars on it.  Reliable dealer had it on sale for 1000 and probably would have taken 800 for the gun.  At 800 it would have been a good buy if stocked in American Wood. Let it pass, too pimped up for me.

Boats

You would not want to put a set of "rims" and skinny tires on a 76 Monte Carlo any more than somebody should stock a classic American Rifle or Shotgun in Foreign wood no matter how pretty it is. To my eye anyway

Latest scam with hard to get new guns like the short barrel Smith & Wesson 625's or certain Marlin Lever actions is to list one and sell at a high price list again sell even higher then third time when the price is sky high really sell the gun. First two were phony sales one dealer to another and only listed to run the price up high.

Buyer beware

Boats

Mike if you remember back, they were doing the same thing to us at the Great Western shows in the 70's.  
MIKE-T

mwhite49 wrote on Oct 17^th, 2011 at 12:15pm:

Mike, I have to say that at least that was the Stories my buddy told me , of course I only looked at the guns! HA! HA! HA!

Nothing like 7 & 1/2 miles of gun tables to keep you busy, I never really believed that myself, but there sure was one H*ll of a lot of tables with guns on them!

Mike

mwhite49 wrote on Oct 17^th, 2011 at 3:51pm:


That's because it's illegal to pay money for what we really DO want when the pretty girls are around.

Not at the Vegas show, with $pecial arrangements!

Quote:

D*mn Joe you gave away my super secret trick for finding those perfect moulds!!!  
Mike

Small world Mike I joined the Navy Jan 4,72 and was in San Diego march or April at SSC/NTC at MR "A" School for 12 Weeks, even though I had earned my Class "A" Machinist card by then. I was also at the Foot Print of the Pacific early 1973 on the way to Vietnam to patrol the coast and fix Tin Cans, went back to Diego Garcia in 1983 on a Navy provided South Pacific Cruise, we had 400+ Wins aboard and there was plenty to drink and very nice groomed beaches to party at, and some awfully (HUGE  ) nice Hammer Heads swimming in the pool/lagoon!
Mike

Email me if you want to BS....Mike

Joe, 

You almost brought a tear to my eye.    

The wire wheels most think of are best left to the bench grinders and drill chucks for getting rid of buzz-box slag. 

But those real fine wire carding wheels are a whole nother deal altogether.    

BP wrote on Oct 17^th, 2011 at 11:31pm:


Seeing some of the buffed molds on ebay will make you cry, thats for sure.  LOOK! I cleaned er up, REAL GOOD!   


                Joe.   

         

Now if you acid dipped or wire wheeled a few of those unscupulous dealers you might teach them a lesson, or not. Once a Fecal Head always a Fecal Head. 
I always ask when I talk to the auctioneers if the guns appear to be cleaned up, or polished up in any way shape or form. I have had a couple these last 2-5 years flat out ask me why in the world would I ask about that. And I  take the time to explain that if anything has been done to refinish them, over clean them or polish them then the  offer would go down drastically. I have seen to many fine collector grade firearms destroyed to the point of being junk, one auction house in Nevada a couple of years back sold the most god awful bunch of firearms crap ever un loaded at an auction. This mess belonged to a California collector who supplied the movie studios, he even had real  machine guns and larger, had anti tank, anti aircraft and all. His building was a fortress looking affair in Purump. That old fart had welded with an arc welder onto some of the rifles to modify them for something. All I can say is they weren't pretty or right. He had moved to Nevada to get away from our state Gestapo.
Always check real close or get burned.
Mike

SSDave, you noticed the shotgun receiver, the wrong type of saddle ring, looks like color case by TORCH method. Blued barrel. Looks like a bunch of left over parts assembled by some one at Numrich arms maybe.
Mike

And I thought for sure it was a shot gun reciever. Oh well. Parts gun for sure. Check out his other stuff on gunbroker and just pick any gun, can you say, gee I smell cold blue. It all looks cleaned and spiffied up. 
I would much rather purchase an uncleaned rifle from anyone than have them hose it up or make it un safe like the torched applied color case job.  I picked up 2 rifles today from my friendly dealer who handles my transferes and he asked gee Mike are you going to clean them up? I explained why not really quick and he caught on. 
Mike

One thing to always remember is if is is a collectable gun it should be close to originalo as possible to keep it's value. With single shot rifles that have been altered by adding new barrels or other items such as scope blocks it does not really effect prices that much as they are shooter and not really collector guns. A very well known fellow collector told me how an acquaintance of his loaded up a 1800's Colt revolver and proceeded to shot it, it blew up. That was a very expensive in nice condition Colt, now trash. One friend is missing several fingers from a barrel blow out on a fine old muzzleloader that did not even have a slug in it, just powder and a wad. Some of these fine old guns I think can be shot but they really need a good inspection before shooting, and that is the one thing about refinishing them. There are some unscrupulous fellows out there who will weld things up to look good but they may not be safe. Keep your eyes really open when purchasing something so you do not get hurt by some one else's work. There are a lot of BUBBA gunsmiths out there that have no clue, they think because they read a book or two, have a lathe and bluing tanks then they are bonafide gunsmiths, oh and they might own a welder too.
There are a large amount of Real Gun Smiths here on this Forum such as John Taylor, and others that I will trust with my work any day. But there are some here localy in my county that I would rather not have do work for me. The Smiths on this forum are top notch and valued for the quality of work they turn out.  They do not build junk/crap like some others do.
Mike
Mike