I got lucky at the auction and picked up 2 German Martini's, one is a Kessler and the other I'm not sure on. One is marked " Grhert Hofhurhsrmacher Munchen 30-40" I think this maybe the retail merchant in Germany and not the maker. I will have to wait and see when I get them shipped to me.
Mike

Congratulations Mike it looks like you just picked up two very fine Rifles so please keep us up to speed on how well they shoot once you have them in hand and based on the apparent condition of the two it looks like you are headed for a tremendous amount of pleasure.

J.Louis

ni-i-i-i-i-i-i-ce!!!   keep us updated.

This was one of those auctions that was really strange, items that I thought would go for 4-10,000 went for under 4. Other items went way high and someone really wanted them, no rhyme or reason. I hate bidding as an absentee bidder but it does have it's benefits in that you will never pay more than you really wanted to in the heat of the auction, so maybe in way, being an absentee bidder is better. I guess.
Finding decent antique guns that are not overpriced is getting harder.
Mike

Hi Mike.            Congrats to those nice German items.  

I guess the letter fragment you mentioned stands for "Karl Gebert Hofbüchsenmacher München", translated "Karl Gebert, royal gunsmith, Munich".

Gebert was one of the most famous gunsmiths in Munich at the beginning of the last century, he was the 2nd president of the "German Gunsmith Association" and he faded away in 1917 (hope I am right with the year).


   Biggi.  

I did find out one of these is in 22 cal, the other one I think is a 8.15x46r, he said the bore mics at just over .3???. Have to wait now and see.
Mike

A .22 rf---COOL!   Might be a 1920-ish conversion of an older 8mm, like it seems mine is.  Should shoot really great---once you find the right ammo

I might have some diopters to fit the rifles Mike.   

       Joe. 

Mike, Mine was completely rebarrelled,  Even had to look real close (by sharper eyes than mine) to see where the breechblock had been bushed and redrilled for a rimfire.  If Biggi hadn't told me that the 22rfs did not come into common use until the 19-teens/twenties or so I'd have sworn it was all earlier/original.

I have had a theory that WW2  GIs of 2nd/3rd generation German American descent, from parts of the country where the schuetzen sport had been more common, who were in Germany very late in the war: and in the early occupation when civilian arms confiscation was being enforced, may have been more likely to recognize what those odd looking target rifles were, salvaged them, and brought them home as trophies. (very long complex sentence ---sorry)
 SO you might be more likely to find them in areas of the country where such trophies might have been more common. As the original GIS passed away and their estates entered the market the rifles started showing up.   Seems like a fair share of them were in the upper midwest from western PA west to the St Louis area and north of the Ohio---some too in New England;  I also suspect that areas where the "greatest Generation GIs" retired and other areas of military retirement/base concentration in the late 40's 50s & 60's might have had more of them as well.

But thats just a theory.  With an internet based market, now distribution is from all over.  Collectors watch closely and monitor estate sales and auctions.  I haven't seen one in years at a general/ public gun show.

I got both my German single shot rifle at a auction house in Orange, CA (my home town) (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links). I bought them in the 80's from them when they were a much smaller company.

Frank

Mike and Frank, I'll probably never get the money to get one but do appreciate your input. Sad to say it you are probably right as our vets are leaving us as too fast a rate and when they are gone no one wants what they have had for so many years. God bless them all!!. Found out last week that I lost a good friend and shooting buddy. He passed in august and I only found out when I went by his house and no vehicles. Had a bad feeling so googled him and found his obituary notice. he was only 57. Darn. Thanks again, Frank

Hey Marlin guy, you hit the nail on the head. Even when I was a young guy and interested I did not have enough money, something else was always more important on the list of needs. 
I was lucky in that I had uncles that were really interested in the old guns, and in single shot rifles. One uncle in particular had a very large volume , more than most gunshops. He had been collecting for years, all types too. 
This early education on the finer points of shooting fine single shot rifles left a long lasting impression on me. And when I could about 20 years ago I started collecting. I do not have many, I buy and sell. But I always have fun. I love the older rifles. They have class that the newer rifles do not as far as I think. If we could get more youngsters involved in the sport it would be great. I have 3 boys that love to shoot, but only new guns. They think a muzzle loader is for a dog, as in muzzle.

The odd thing is when looking for old single shot rifles I generally find that they turn up in the strangest places sometimes. The thing with these fine old rifles that gets my goat is an auctioneer that really does not know rifles gets contacted by a family to haul it all away and half the good stuff ends up in the trash, like the tools and items from a cased set, signed targets from Pope and others. 
Take care and happy collecting.
Mike

As far as I can see on that pic, the rifle has the normal German proofmarks B-G-U with the crowns and the running number 172 from the year 1928 as shown.

             Biggi. 

Hi Biggi, thanks for the translation on the date this one was made. I had to change the auction on Gunbroker so it ships to an FFL holder.
Mike

Is there a chance that this is an older rifle with a newer barrel installed.
Here is a picture of some proof marks on the side of the action.
Mike

I subsume the .22 small-bore history in Germany:

In 1896 there was founded a Flobert-Schutzenbund in the region of Frankfurt and Offenbach (in the west and middle of Germany). They shot with Flobert-6mm-rifles and small-bore-rifle looking like the target rifles. Beginning of the century they changed their name to "Mitteldeutscher Schützenbund" and shot probably only with .22 small-bore rifles. And those rifles seemed to have only the target rifle style with a big cheek-piece and with German double trigger. There were some hundred shooters who used such rifle in that region. I guess all the parts and probably the whole rifles came from factories in Thuringia (Suhl, Zella, Mehlis, St. Blasii) and were sold by gunsmiths in that mentioned region in Mitteldeutschland.

When the main movement of small-bore rifles started in Germany between 1908 and 1914, they used the international style of small-bore rifles, which was usable for three-position-competitions and without double trigger.

Then WWI stopped all efforts on small-bore rifle-shooting. When they started again round 1920 with .22 shooting, they changed to bolt action rifles and some dropping block rifles - but all of them with single trigger and sportive stock. Only some manufacturers offered the so-called "free-rifle" for other competitions, which had the target rifle style.

                     Biggi.  

With those two pics I cannot tell anything. You should show some proofmarks or if you know the maker.

                     Biggi. 

Biggi,
There are no marks of any kind on my gun, inside or out. Not even a serial number. Under the barrel it's stamped "foreign action no number" and it's barrel #281 so, I'm going to say that it was rebarreled after WW1 so, I would have to say that it was made before WW1 and brought back here after WW1 to be rebarreled because of the low numbered barrel.

Would it fit into that time period? 

Frank

It's my belief that this rifle was reworked to fit the 10 lb small bore class. The barrel is 1 1/16 round by George Titherington of Stockton, CA and is only 20" long. I shoot it with a barrel weight attached to the muzzle. The butt plate was ground (to take the hooks off) and polished and I think it may have had a Tyrolian cheek piece that was reshaped to the contour that it has now. Only the parts that are pictured are original to the rifle. The fore stock and hanger for it are American made, too.

Frank

One other thing is that the action is of the same "system" as my German CF rifle. You can find a full pic of both on the first or second page of the picture thread. The breech block is hinged on the lever and slides up into the frame. It may be a System Buchel but, I really don't know.

Frank

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reply #6

The Small bore (22 rf) matches were a big thing here in the 30's through the 60's and Americans have always tried to build something better than the other guy has. Titherington was one of the TOP barrel maker back in those days and his barrels were in high demand. The butt plate was diffidently modified to meet the rules (no hooked butt plates) and the action is of very high quality. I think someone was trying to put a rifle together that he thought would be better that the others that he shot with. We Americans like custom EVERYTHING.

Frank

Since we are into Martini rifles right now and German, here is a picture of the strangest Martini rifle system I have ever seen. This one is for sale.
The front large trigger assembly lowers/raises the breech block, it has a central exposed hammer just visible in the picture. This is a full stock rifle.
Mike

Mike,

I sure would like to know something about the rifle in the middle.  I have never seen anything like that one.  Please tell us some details.  Looks wierd enough to be Norwegian.

waterman

Here is a close up of the action, that must have been the inletting job from hell to inlet around that action.
Mike

The side flush model is a Fraser.
Mike