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Weigh or Throw BP (Read 13946 times)

boats Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 7728 Location: Virginia Joined: Apr 23^rd, 2004	Re: Weigh or Throw BP Reply #15 - Sep 16^th, 2011 at 6:15pm	Print Post
	While I believe in suitable velocity and load components including powder charge, I don't believe in sweet spots. I crank my measure up and down during a match according to conditions. Suppose the sweet spot was right during testing on a 70 degree day, is it still right on a 30 degree day or at different altitude or different humidity. Best modern bench rest shooters vary loads as conditions change. Within a certain range of successful powder charges true but without belief that half grain one way or the other is important. Most sweet spots show up as a result of natural dispersion in short sample testing Nobody is going to agree with me though Boats


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westerner Frequent Elocutionist Offline deleted posts and threads record holder. Posts: 12351 Location: Why, out West of course Joined: May 29^th, 2006	Re: Weigh or Throw BP Reply #16 - Sep 16^th, 2011 at 6:52pm	Print Post
	I've loaded both ways. I'm not good enough to tell any difference, thrown V weighing powder charges. If I'm loading for a BP BR match, I weigh the charges, but not always. For instance, I dont weigh my slug gun charges. I agree with you Boats. Maybe because we both concentrate on OH rather than BR ? You're really piling up the posts, Boats, Hmmm? Joe.

	A blind squirrel runs into a tree every once in a while.
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BP Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 8039 Location: Westside Joined: Aug 27^th, 2006	Re: Weigh or Throw BP Reply #17 - Sep 16^th, 2011 at 7:13pm	Print Post
	Quote: Nobody is going to agree with me though Boats, While I was forced to learn about wave harmonics in college Physics and do believe that it has an effect, I agree that the variables such as non-standard temp, barometric pressure with relative humidity, and especially shooter-related inputs play the more significant roles. If shooters someday become consistently capable of machine rest accuracy without using a machine rest, I'll gladly reconsider things.

	There are three kinds of men: The ones that learn by reading, the few who learn by observation, and the rest who have to pee on the electric fence and find out for themselves. Proud Noodlehead
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boats Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 7728 Location: Virginia Joined: Apr 23^rd, 2004	Re: Weigh or Throw BP Reply #18 - Sep 16^th, 2011 at 11:01pm	Print Post
	BP Barrel harmonics may have more significant effect on light barreled high velocity rifles. Big thick single shot barrel shooting the mild charges we use my guess is sweet spots get lost in the other variables. I may change my mind if somebody runs a truly exhaustive test indoors machine rest. groups on either side of the "spot" showing definite trend. Until then best to crank the measure as it suits you during the match. I probably don't go up or down more than 1/2 grain with 4227. Few clicks you can often see the difference in holes on paper though. Nice and round if the velocity is supersonic all the way to the target without over charging that soft base bullet. Most 32's about 200 grs have a pretty narrow range of acceptable velocity and like to keep it in that range. Boats


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Schuetzendave Frequent Elocutionist Offline Retired Ex-Shooter Posts: 4233 Location: St. Albert, Alberta Joined: Jan 28^th, 2005	Re: Weigh or Throw BP Reply #19 - Sep 17^th, 2011 at 11:36am	Print Post
	"about BP - not smokeless" The target I posted for the .40-65 5 shot group was using Swiss FFFg black powder. My testing has shown confirming a sweet spot for your rifle barrel by tuning with fine powder loading works for both black powder and smokeless. Yes any powder load may need to have the sweet spot adjusted by a tenth grain due to environmental changes when the powder is sensitive to climatic changes. Yes I have found I need to vary my black powder load by a tenth grain between winter and summer shooting. When you are fine tuning a barrel to confirm the sweet spot throw away the chrony. I have found frequently the tightest groups from confirming a sweet spot will not always be the smallest variation in standard deviation of the bullet's speed. The only way to confrim precise accuarcy of your barrel and confirmation you have found the sweet spot is through measurement of group sizes. I prefer to find the smallest group size shot under extreme wind conditions when testing. Once you have identified your sweet spot then use your chrony to establish the baseline bullet speed in case you need to adjust your sweet spot in the future due to changes in climatic variation. Before testing for a sweet spot for black powder you need to ensure you have fully filled the case to the base of the bullet with reduced bulk densities of your black powder. Before starting to increase my loads by one tenth grain I first vibrate Goex or drop tube polished balck powders such as Swiss to establish the smallest amount of black powder I can use before I start testing for the sweet spot for black powder.
	« Last Edit: Sep 17^th, 2011 at 11:43am by Schuetzendave »

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John Boy Ex Member	Re: Weigh or Throw BP Reply #20 - Sep 17^th, 2011 at 4:00pm	Print Post
	I take my advice from V Bull, Frank Monikowski, about grain variances when reloading. Might add, volume charges will vary from scale weight charges depending on the density and granulation of the powder. Also, be sure to settle the powder if you use a volume measurure Per V Bull: Guys, I'm also going to weigh in my 2 cents. When I started shooting these cartridge rifles about 20 years ago, I weighed powder, cases, and bullets. After a few years, I ended up just weighing the bullets and the powder only to set up the measure. For at least the last 10 years I've not measured the weights of individual powder charges other then as a spot check. The measures I use are Lyman 55 (2), for 38 and 32 caliber. And the old Hollywood for 40 / 45 calibers. I also use a Belding and Mull for my LR muzzleloaders. I find the B+M the most accurate but the others adequate and capable of +/- 0.3 gr or slightly less on average. Since switching over to Swiss powder when it became available around 8 years ago, I look for a average amount of compression to determine the powder weight to set the measure to. I also use Schuetzen FG powder for reduced recoil / velocity loads. I load for both myself and wife. She makes wads, lubes and weighs bullets. At the risk of sounding like a braggart, between us we have 40 National Records in Open, Military, Scope, Muzzleloader and Womens catagories for BP Target rifle. And 10 National Championships between Canada and the U.S. in likewise catagories. We don't shoot silhouette. To me, the bullet is the most important. Weight, design, appearance and alloy. Powder kept around 1/2 grain total variance = good enough. Being able to break a shot down the center, call it and read wind and mirage, priceless......
	« Last Edit: Sep 17^th, 2011 at 4:13pm by »

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westerner Frequent Elocutionist Offline deleted posts and threads record holder. Posts: 12351 Location: Why, out West of course Joined: May 29^th, 2006	Re: Weigh or Throw BP Reply #21 - Sep 17^th, 2011 at 11:21pm	Print Post
	Dave's a Canadian. Just thought I'd mention that. Joe. (American)

	A blind squirrel runs into a tree every once in a while.
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boats Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 7728 Location: Virginia Joined: Apr 23^rd, 2004	Re: Weigh or Throw BP Reply #22 - Sep 18^th, 2011 at 7:23am	Print Post
	V Bull's right and has the credentials to back his opinion up. Person can shoot a few groups one way or the other and form opinions. Shoot a years worth of matches watch every strike you know if something works well. Boats


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SSShooter Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2942 Location: Southern NJ Joined: Aug 1^st, 2010	Re: Weigh or Throw BP Reply #23 - Sep 18^th, 2011 at 10:09am	Print Post
	Shot my first 500m silhouette match this weekend at Shippensburg, PA. Great fun and a well run match. Shot reasonably well in practice on Fri, but suffered from flat-light and smoke on match day. Something I'll have to get used to. Had dinner with the current Sr. champion and he weighs his loads. Same for the other good shooters I spoke with. Their vote was 6-to-0 on weighing vs. throwing. I'm going to test using both the target grouping and chrono and then decide. But the good long-range shooters I spoke with all weigh. Unlike me, they have many years of experience.

	Glenn - Stevens 044 1/2, Bartlein SS 5R barrel in 22LR
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boats Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 7728 Location: Virginia Joined: Apr 23^rd, 2004	Re: Weigh or Throw BP Reply #24 - Sep 18^th, 2011 at 10:46am	Print Post
	Thing about a good shooter, and Shippensburg has some very good ones, is they can't give up a single target. Most matches are decided by one target and its generally in a shoot off. We just ran some data on our Club single shot matches 9 completed so far this year roughly 350 scores recorded with about 3 dozen regular shooters. 6 guys are always in contention for first place but one has shot higher average scores than anybody else by about one shot per match. He's clearly the guy to beat. Watching noticed he indexes his cartridges when loading both bullet position in the case from the mold and case position in the chamber . Never asked his loading method but probably goes to great pains at home. Fellow that's 2nd for wins and average scores loads his Browning High Wall that carries a new made Marbles tang sight 38/55 on a progressive machine using store bought bullets and Trail boss powder. Personally I use reasonable care casting and loading but don't weigh every charge or index. I do wear the same pair of boots every match, also same belt and the same hat. My opinion is the Boots are more important than indexing or weighing. Lack of that hat cost me dearly in a CLA match last weekend. Boats
	« Last Edit: Sep 18^th, 2011 at 3:40pm by boats »

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boats Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 7728 Location: Virginia Joined: Apr 23^rd, 2004	Re: Weigh or Throw BP Reply #25 - Sep 18^th, 2011 at 3:51pm	Print Post
	Re read and thought I ought to explain about the boots. I see guys all the time shooting one day in boat shoes next running shoes or like our last match guy that was working down range had some rubber boots on then shot his match without changing It's all about consistency and if your platform changes match to match no way a person is going to shoot good offhand scores. Olympic style shooters use a special shoe that's dead flat and hard to walk in.. That's going too far for Schuetzen in my opinion and if Silhouette clear violation of the rules as "competition only clothing" . However a nice sturdy boot with flat soles ankle high that does not rock around a lot is a real advantage. BPCS only has one offhand leg but even the X Sticks need something you can dig your toes in and get the full benefit of prone. When I shot smallbore prone it was always off concrete and shoes with a sticky rubber capped toe were part of the outfit. My guess is bench shooters need the same bench top platform for elbows and the stool or seat is a critical part of the outfit. Match last weekend I left my flap brim shooting hat behind. Sure enough the range was oriented almost due East, Rising sun first relay was glaring in my eyes and made the targets real hard to see. Don't put it on unless I need it but need it it's essential. Point is everything is important and the things a shooters believers are important the most important of all. Boats
	« Last Edit: Sep 18^th, 2011 at 5:08pm by boats »

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mtnwinds Ex Member	Re: Weigh or Throw BP Reply #26 - Sep 18^th, 2011 at 11:54pm	Print Post
	SSShooter wrote on Sep 10^th, 2011 at 6:40am: With BP, have been using a B&M and then weighing each load on my digital scale and trickling up to the wanted weight before pouring through the drop tube into the case. Am wondering if one can simply 'throw' the load using the B&M (or Lyman #55 or other powder dispenser) and weigh every 10th throw, or so (like with smokeless) and still have accurate fixed ammo? The B&M seems to vary about 0.3gr with Goex FFg. I tried throwing an 80 gr charge of Swiss 1½ and couldn't do it. I threw and weighed, threw and weighed and the charges would vary by almost 1 grain. Then I tried using one or a combination of Lee powder scoops....didn't have success there either. Finally I screwed my Uniflow measure down tight to my bench and started throwing using a system of taps that I repeated each time I threw a load. Eureka, the loads all weighed within .2 (tenths) of a grain & occasionally (.3 tenths) of a grain. I'm happier than a cow in tall clover now. I don't think there is a magic powder measure that will make top shots out of everyone anymore than there is a magic bullet or lube that will do it. Seems like using common tools properly is what is called for. If you're throwing within .3 of a grain I think you are ready to go. If shooting at an extra special 1000 yd. match, maybe I'd trickle up my loads.


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SSShooter Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2942 Location: Southern NJ Joined: Aug 1^st, 2010	Re: Weigh or Throw BP Reply #27 - Sep 20^th, 2011 at 7:45am	Print Post
	boats wrote on Sep 18^th, 2011 at 10:46am: Thing about a good shooter, and Shippensburg has some very good ones, is they can't give up a single target. Most matches are decided by one target and its generally in a shoot off. Boats Only three shoot-offs at the end of the day. As you said, a very competitive group of shooters. Nothing like baptism by fire (and smoke and flat-light). Hope to have my new butt-stock on by the next match. That crescent butt-plate kicked the s**t out of my shoulder, even with the strap-on recoil pad. Not made for prone shooting.

	Glenn - Stevens 044 1/2, Bartlein SS 5R barrel in 22LR
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