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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Pistol Primers (25-20 SS). Why? (Read 11966 times)
spitpatch
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Pistol Primers (25-20 SS). Why?
Sep 6th, 2011 at 9:10am
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Nearly unanimous recommendations state that pistol primers (particularly Rem 1 1/2) work best. ('85 High Wall).

I will not challenge this repeated advice, intend to start with them, but am curious as to the reasoning/evidence for their use.

Is it a softer cup? Ignition characteristics? Both? Something else?

For quality smokeless handloads in small-capacity rifle cases, I have always gravitated toward benchrest-grade small rifle primers with outstanding results (.32-20, .25-20, .22 Hornet, .256 Win Mag).

What is/are the characteristic(s) of the small pistol primer that makes it best in a gun such as this High Wall .25-20 SS?
  
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tenx
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Re: Pistol Primers (25-20 SS). Why?
Reply #1 - Sep 6th, 2011 at 10:09am
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Spit,

 From all I have heard in the past the reason for pistol primers in either LR or SR is due to ignition problems in older guns where time, or some other problem, has weakened the mainspring. Flat springs seem to be notorious for weakening over time. It's generally believed that weak mainsprings allow for light hits on the primer and resulting variations in ignition which then cause variations in MV. Plus the old bugaboo of lack of ignition at all, or worse yet a hangfire.

  As you've read, pistol primers seem to go off better due to softer material is probably true since if you've ever mistakenly fired a pistol primer in a hot pistol round you'll probably end up with a punctured primer. I have!!

  Experience among SS shooters seems to indicate that pistol primers give a more reliable ignition. My own experience along this line bears this out and even then I've had to hit the firing pin twice to get it to go off in guns with very weak mainsprings

 But..... I use CCI-BR4's in my .25/20SS chambered in a Winder Low Wall with no problems. Of course it has the coil spring rather than the flat one. Which is something to consider in your gun.

Pete
« Last Edit: Sep 6th, 2011 at 10:20am by tenx »  
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tim_s
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Re: Pistol Primers (25-20 SS). Why?
Reply #2 - Sep 6th, 2011 at 10:21am
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Remember, the primary function of the primer is to initiate consistant, efficient combustion of the entire charge for a good balance of burn/pressure/shot ot shot repeatability. It has been shown that if there is way too much primer in small case, smallcharge, fast burning powders, then most of those desired effects are often compromised, in particular often having rather sharp pressure spikes. It does not really take a big burn to properly ignite say 12-15 grains of 4227.
  

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Re: Pistol Primers (25-20 SS). Why?
Reply #3 - Sep 6th, 2011 at 11:01am
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Box might say pistol but all the cartridge knows on ignition is pressure. Cartridges like the 25/20 32/20 produce moderate pistol like pressure.  Small rifle primers are made to handle hot small case loads like in the 223

One thing you have to watch is Large Pistol and Large Rifle are dimensionally the same. Small pistol is slightly shorter than small rifle. Not a lot but watch your primer pocket depth when seating make sure it goes all the way to the bottom and you have enough pin travel to ignite.

Reason I use small pistol in my 32/20 CLA Pistol caliber match rifle is the Marlin 2 piece firing pin has been replaced with a single pin and am running the hammer spring at minimum looking for the best trigger pull.  It's not hitting very hard. Even with Pistol primers I get the occasional fail to fire. FTF is a legal alibi in NRA Silhouette so no negative if it hits but does not pop.  As a match director somebody fails to fire over and over I stop allowing alibi's, a few let them slide according to the rule.

This set up is not good for other applications so the advice is make up your own mind based on the outcome required.

Boats
  
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Deadeye Bly
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Re: Pistol Primers (25-20 SS). Why?
Reply #4 - Sep 6th, 2011 at 12:49pm
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I'm with tim_s on this one. Some years ago my brother called Hodgdon to  request some loading data on the then new L'il Gun powder in the 22 Hornet. The technician told him some loads to try and then suggested he try pistol primers. The technician told him that with small charges of powder in small rifle cases that the pistol primers gave more consistent ignition with lower standard deviations and generally better accuracy. He was right. The best accuracy was with pistol primers. The more powerful blast of the rifle primers is not needed in those small cases to ignite all the powder. 

A lot of Black powder shooters have gone to large Pistol primers in their silhouette loads whereas 15 years ago the preferred primer was the Fed 215 magnum primer.
  
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Re: Pistol Primers (25-20 SS). Why?
Reply #5 - Sep 6th, 2011 at 12:58pm
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You are right 215's were the one to have then we mostly shifted to Large Pistol.  Two years ago when primers were scarce I started using some 215 magnums over 10 years old.   CPA in 38/55 using 4759 had one of it's best seasons with them. 

Never one to let success go to my head back using Pistol primers in the 38/55.  You don't need so much hammer spring tension which makes the rifle easier to cock.

Boats
  
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Re: Pistol Primers (25-20 SS). Why?
Reply #6 - Sep 6th, 2011 at 3:50pm
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Here is my take on primers. You'll not know if you've found the best load unless you try pistol and rifle primers. Some powders like less powerful primers than others. I don't know if it's barrel nodes or pressure ranges or something else but, please don't get stuck on pistol versus rifle, try both! As a rule, I start with pistol primers then go to rifle. For my self, I find the the 2 1/2 Rem's work better with 4759 and BP because of there low brisness (sp). I never use rifles with BP but, I do try others with 4759. 4227 doesn't seem to mine either but, I've never tried mag primers with it. When I shot 296, F150's produced 6 fps ES in my 32/40 and 13.0 gr powder. I like certain kinds of primers, Federal's first then Winchester and lately, I've taken a liking to the Wolf. But if I have any question regarding primers, I go back to Federal's, always.

Another advantage of pistol primers is that if your unconcerned about pressures (as you should be with the short cartridges), they will be your best indicator of high pressure. As Boat's says, be aware of the shorter SP and make sure that you have a good indent.

Frank
« Last Edit: Sep 6th, 2011 at 3:56pm by frnkeore »  

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Re: Pistol Primers (25-20 SS). Why?
Reply #7 - Sep 9th, 2011 at 1:28pm
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Hello, everyone..About the large rifle and pistol primers being the same height..and small rifle & pistol different...There just the opposite..Large pistol are shorter than large rifle.  The small versions of each are equal in height.
  
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Re: Pistol Primers (25-20 SS). Why?
Reply #8 - Sep 9th, 2011 at 1:49pm
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John Louis recommends reading this article about primers.   

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

I tried reading it this morning but just cant get through it without falling asleep.

When I started shooting SS rifles, lots of shooters recommended pistol primers. I had two hiwalls then. One of them has an odd style firing pin.
When I tried to use pistol primers in that rifle it sometimes failed to go off. The pistol primers when fully seated in my cases sat low in the primer pocket. The logical thing for me to do then was switch to rifle primers and I did. I shot an awful lot of test targets comparing the two types of primers. I couldnt tell any difference in accuracy. At that time I was trying to win the aggregate matches and didnt care so much about a single BR score. I figured if I shot mid 240s and good OH scores, that would win the agg. 
I have a hard time believing any shooter can tell the difference in accuracy of different primers when shooting outdoors.  Seems to me a machine rest inside a hanger or tunnel would be the way to do the testing. 

Anyone know where theres an empty hanger we could use?  A hundred yards would be enough, wouldnt it?  

Now, back to that primer article.  Sad  Cry

              Joe.   Smiley
  

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Re: Pistol Primers (25-20 SS). Why?
Reply #9 - Sep 9th, 2011 at 2:32pm
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My experience over a more than a ten year period of testing and chorongraphing loads was that, primers do make a difference in both ES, SD and accuracy. I chronographed subsonic, our 1300 - 1450 fps loads and 2000+ fps CBA loads during those years and have a 2" of of results in a 3 ring binder in 22rf, 25/20, 7mm TCU, 32/35, 32/40, 30/40, slug guns and 45/70 plus a few others with cast and jacketed using BP (hard on chronos), Unique, B'dot, 4227, 296, WC820, 4759, 4895 and 2520 to name a few. I also, machined cases to use SP primers in 30/40, 308 and 45/70.

I like Federals mostly and use them in pistol primers first but, I'm not stuck on them and buy 100 packs of other primers to test and use if they perform. Before Obama was elected, I bought 6000 of Wolf in rifle and pistol and they have worked well. )I wish they were color coded though so you can keep track of the loose ones).

I believe that being stuck on one kind of primer is a big mistake when it comes to fine tuning a load.

You gotta be open to try things. It wasn't long ago that people were saying that spitzers wouldn't work but, they've taken us from 245/7's to 250's. Tell me what just 1 consistant point is worth in the 245+ score range? And does it matter if it comes from barrel, bullet, powder or primer?

Frank

« Last Edit: Sep 9th, 2011 at 2:39pm by frnkeore »  

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Re: Pistol Primers (25-20 SS). Why?
Reply #10 - Sep 9th, 2011 at 2:43pm
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I watched Bob Zimmerman shoot a 250 with Pope flat point bullets at Springfield OR. The last 250 I shot was the same bullet from the same mold maker.  I cant tell the difference between a flat point bullet and a spitzer either.  Too many uncontrollable conditions outside. 

I'm just not that good.   

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Re: Pistol Primers (25-20 SS). Why?
Reply #11 - Sep 9th, 2011 at 2:47pm
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I'm guessing 246?


           Joe.  Smiley
  

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frnkeore
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Re: Pistol Primers (25-20 SS). Why?
Reply #12 - Sep 9th, 2011 at 3:03pm
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Joe,
The spitzers do have less wind drift. If you can dope the wind correctly in all all conditions, all the time, you could probably use a wad cutter to shoot a 250. All other things being equal, I'll take a tapered spitzer any time. Look at the bullets that Dave and Colleen shot the 250's with in Spokane.

Frank
  

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Re: Pistol Primers (25-20 SS). Why?
Reply #13 - Sep 9th, 2011 at 3:09pm
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John, 
What I mean by that is, would you change the brand, type or size of your primers if you knew that it would mean that you would average one extra point per target. Or the twist rate, powder or bullet to get that same advantage.

Frank
  

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Re: Pistol Primers (25-20 SS). Why?
Reply #14 - Sep 9th, 2011 at 3:33pm
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Experimenting with primers, powders and bullets, in that order, would be the cheapest route to pick up better groups/more points.  Usually, though, we think of changing powder rather than experimenting with primer brands and types...a quick look in my powder cabinet will confirm that!

David
  

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