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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Offhand, again (Read 16076 times)
gunlaker
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Re: Offhand, again
Reply #15 - Aug 25th, 2011 at 2:20pm
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From a relative outsider's perspective, I think that a big issue is that people just haven't heard of Schuetzen shooting.  Up here (B.C. Canada) I don't think I've run into a single person who shoots in this style.  We have offhand black powder shoots at my club once a month and every now and again a new younger shooter shows up. I'm currently one of the youngest at 45.   I've even spoken with gun smiths who have never heard of false muzzles or breech seating.

I'm going to see if I can kindle a bit of an interest locally in this style of shooting, but I might be playing with myself.  I priimarily shoot black powder in Sharps, Highwalls (including a recently purchased left handed Single Shot Special, the actual rifle is pictured in Campbell's second book), and a Stevens in .25-20 SS.    I've got a CPA coming and I imagine it'll generate some interest when people see a rifle with a palm rest.  Smiley

I think that anything that raises awareness of shooting the old rifles is extremely important for the shooting sports.  Maybe Schuetzen needs its own "Quigley Down Under" movie Smiley.

Chris.


  
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QuestionableMaynard8130
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Re: Offhand, again
Reply #16 - Aug 25th, 2011 at 2:24pm
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yeah, he shudda taken those long shots offhand with a palmrest and wearing a derby Wink
  

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Re: Offhand, again
Reply #17 - Aug 25th, 2011 at 3:14pm
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Our club matches on gongs we squad 4 guys to the same target. Shoot your turn then reload and get ready while the other 3 guys shoot. Behind you is the 4 man off relay two with spotting scopes one with scorecards 4th putting a colored push pin on a spotting board, marking each shooters strike.  No wind flags this match either however the spotting board gives you a very good read on wind when compared to were the shot was called. No doubt old matches the shooters read the wind same way. Observing the call vs marked strike.

Individual cycle is about 2 minutes, Minute and a half load and wait about 30 seconds to fire yours.   Relaxed it's not you have to shoot soon as your turn comes up with everybody watching. Balk or take too long they will call you on the delay which makes it even harder to break the shot.

It's about like the old matches were fired and not a easy game. No sighter shots after the match starts makes it even harder when condition changes develop during the match.

Get a squad with good shooters & scorers the routine is like clockwork and easier to hit than with irregular pace caused by misses and slow spot service.  I shoot this match better than a Hudson on my own with plenty of time.

Every game is different and difficult to compare old record scores against matches shot under modern conditions.

Boats
  
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joeb33050
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Re: Offhand, again
Reply #18 - Aug 27th, 2011 at 6:56am
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Al C. and I shot thousands-well over a hundred thousand-shots each practicing offhand, and shot many matches over a 15 year stretch. What we both learned is that offhand shooting requires God-given talent. It is just not true that a person can practice his way into becoming a good offhand shot. We were coached and helped by some quite good shooters. That helped, but didn't get us into the "good" category. We shot at the military 200 yard centers, with ?4"X ring and ?7" 10 ring, etc. I once, in 25 years of prettry steady shooting, shot a score of 190 +, this was a fluke 192. The good shooters could and did regularly shoot above 190 with SS and bolt guns, including 40+ calibers. We also learned that good offhand shooters can shoot good scores into old age. Age and a little infirmity doesn't affect offhand performance for a long time. Also, some excellent OH shooters are quite young, I've seen them in their late teens early 20s.
Benchrest shooting can be learned and done well by acquiring good equipment, practice, and talking to others. BR performance does not depend on a God-given talent. 
Eventually Al C. slowed shooting almost to a complete stop and I turned into a BR shooter. 
We both got tired of knowing that we stood no chance of finishing "in the money" at any match. That takes the fun out of the game.
I predict that any regularly-held OH match will attract the same few shooters over time, and never attract a lot of shooters. The same talented guys will win, the others will drop out. 
But, I'm frequently wrong; try it and see.
BTW, I was 17th at Coors in 1983. Well out of the money, and my best lifetime match.
joe b.
  
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Re: Offhand, again
Reply #19 - Aug 27th, 2011 at 11:23am
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Chris, as you probably know there is a pretty active club here in Alberta. Your more then welcome to cross the boarder and join us. There is a few guys in southern BC who shoot a bit, but other then that we havn't heard of any others.
SST
  
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Re: Offhand, again
Reply #20 - Aug 27th, 2011 at 11:44am
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Joe 17th at the Coor's is a very good performance.  Offhand shooter can be the top dog at local clubs. Get to a national match it's a whole different game. All the top dogs show up.

As far as difficulty offhand is no harder than casting a bait caster or fly rod or hitting a golf ball.  Plenty of guys never learn to cast or hit golf balls though.  I do think you can learn offhand if well coached. Problem is a lot of poor coaching and advice is the norm.  Former high power shooters are the worst in my experience, muzzle loader background seems to be the best.

Our club new shooter with a strong IDPA action pistol background about 50 years old started shooting Single Shots & Lever actions year ago. He's in the top rank now. Other day rimfire CLA he went 54/60 first match 57/60 next. Year ago he was hiting less than 50 %  Thats 120 record shots missing 9 and they were close misses I was squaded next to him.  ASSRA rimfire 100 yard target same performance would have been well over 2150.  I did loan him my "Russian" book when he started.

I don't agree that advanced age is a real handicap either. You do have to adjust but the key to offhand is making the right decision when it's time to pull the trigger. Nothing negative about age when it comes to decisions

I will agree at the absolute top level there is a mind set and body type that ends up winning, however if you shoot a sport that's classed plenty of competition at the lower levels.  I spend most of  my time in AAA silhouette and it's hotly contested.  

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Re: Offhand, again
Reply #21 - Aug 27th, 2011 at 12:14pm
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singleshotom wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 11:23am:
Chris, as you probably know there is a pretty active club here in Alberta. Your more then welcome to cross the boarder and join us. There is a few guys in southern BC who shoot a bit, but other then that we havn't heard of any others.
SST


I'd definitely like to do that some time. It'd give a reason to go on a road trip to Alberta too. Smiley

Chris.
  
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joeb33050
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Re: Offhand, again
Reply #22 - Aug 27th, 2011 at 12:21pm
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Shooting offhand involves only two elements. First is aligning the sights and the target. Second is depressing the trigger. I was and still am able to align the sights and the target, perfectly. And, I am able to depress the trigger as a surprise, without disturbing the sight alignment.
The trick to offhand shooting is to make both elements occur simultaneously. Hence the comments and laughter at offhand matches.
"I've had the sights lined up perfectly for about 20 minutes, but I can't make the damn gun go off!"
and
"I wonder why my gun went off when it was aimed right next to the target frame."
joe b.
  
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Re: Offhand, again
Reply #23 - Aug 27th, 2011 at 4:40pm
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I tend to agree with JoeB on the talent thing. The best OH shooters do seem to be of there own class and there's no way to know who will rise to the top until it happens.

I started this sport with the intention of doing well at OH but, I developed a flinch that I just couldn't control and the more I shot, the more I flinched. I had a couple of good couches and learned some things from them and I believe it let me make a few good shots here and there but, I did discover that I can't make it anywhere near the top. And that's why I'm so interested in OH, I know it's HARD and I know that there are people that CAN do it. They are far and few but, I do admire them greatly. The two that I did know and talk to (Feren and Richard Corbin) couldn't really help other than the basic OH couching, they could just DO it. Richard Corbin told me that he could "will" the rifle to say while he pulled the trigger. As a guess, I think maybe they can just slow there mind down (possibly like yoga) to make it seem like that. Feren talked about lock time and wouldn't shoot a hammer or a DST rifle in a OH match. And thats all the extra info I could get from either. Talking to them sure makes you think, if only........... though.

That's why there still needs to be a BR component to a big OH match, so everyone can participate and feel part of it.

Frank
  

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Re: Offhand, again
Reply #24 - Aug 28th, 2011 at 8:44am
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There are things beyond your control that will give you advantages in offhand. Pope had freakishly long arms (he once said that he had a 2" reach advantage on Jack Dempsy) for a man on a 5'5" frame. Donaldson is the same way you can see in the picture of Donaldson holding Hudson's Walker-Hepburn his elbow sitting firmly on his hip. This is a distinct natural advantage. However there are good offhand shots who don't have these natural advantages and shoot very well. Chuck Blender comes to mind this is not a man built in the Pope-Donaldson mould. Yet he is a good offhand shot. Why? Chuck has two things working for him desire and the ability to learn. At an early age Chuck decided that he wanted to be a good shot. He practised and practised when he found that his body type didn't conform to the classic style, he figured out a way to hold that complimented his body type. Then he practised and practised and then he practised some more. Most of us who aren't good at off hand lack one or both of two things. The first is the ability to analyze what we are doing and change what is not working and the other is we don't want it bad enough to put in the work.
PS I suck at offhand.

40 Rod
  
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Re: Offhand, again
Reply #25 - Aug 28th, 2011 at 1:04pm
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I totally agree about practice dedication being very important. I know in Feren's case that he shot bricks of 22rf, in Corbin's case, I don't remember him saying he shot a lot of RF but, both of them dry fired every day for extended periods. 

I tried to get in a habit of dry firing but, I just couldn't do it. It was boring to me and after a short time, I found other things more important in my day to day life. I guess if I had found some instant gratification link to it, you couldn't have stopped me from doing it but, I couldn't make that connection.

I do think that you can do that a lot easier with younger people. I think that about 12 years old would be a excellent, approximate age to start. Build there confidence and reward them for doing well. That's one of the reason that I keep saying that we need the young in this sport and area of interest.

One more thing that's important and that's the competitive spirit. To win reliably, you can't crack under pressure. The pressure has to make you want it more and concentrate more on getting the best shot off. Not all people have that, either, the mere mention of missing can be enough to put doubt in a persons mind and cause the loss of concentration but, in others it can do the opposite.

Theres's lots to it and I admire it all but, like 40_Rod, I suck.

Frank
  

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Re: Offhand, again
Reply #26 - Aug 28th, 2011 at 1:43pm
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I've been following these threads about the offhand stuff and hope to get some Schuetzen shooting started in my neck of the woods, Kansas City, Mo. probably next year. Anyway I keep seeing the CLA mentioned just what is "CLA"? 

Thanks
Richard
  
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Re: Offhand, again
Reply #27 - Aug 29th, 2011 at 7:30am
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I always say anybody can learn to shoot offhand and still believe it's true.  When we talk about the top level it's another thing, some have more potential than others. just like in every other sport.  Not everybody is Tiger Woods and using him as an example even top level can't stay on top forever. I don't think we will ever see him win consistently again.  He's lost it mentally skill level is probably the same just lost focus. Thinking about something else not making shots.

The Woods lesson that relates to shooting offhand well is top performance is not related to guns and ammo. Once all equipment wise is equal and position is as good as the shooter can build it's all mental.  I see guys shoot matches that have potential but don't have the focus required, they beat themselves after a bad shot, can't shrug it off and shoot the next shot fresh.  Lot of distractions bother guys too, you need to be able to ignore what goes on behind the firing line. Another thing often seen is lack of a plan or if they have one sticking to it the whole match. It's very hard work staying on top of all shots and even more difficult to stay on your game for 100 shots, which is what makes the Hudson match so difficult.

If you want to look at some of the best references try certain  chapters in David Tubbs book. Brian Enos "Practical Shooting" " Quiet Eye Solutions" from the University of Calgary.  Lanny Bassham's books and tapes or for an old one "Become the Arrow " by Brian Ferguson.  Not as much fun as debating High Wall vs Ballard or what rim fire ammo rifles "like".

These observations from watching as much as shooting.

Boats
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Re: Offhand, again
Reply #28 - Aug 29th, 2011 at 8:01am
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My perspective is somewhat limited. I've only shot at Etna Green but I have become absolutely convinced that the consistent winners are guys who have mastered that art of sensing and adapting to the "conditions".  Its very obvious in the BR matches.  Offhand bullets are subject to the exact same conditions; and the offhand shooters body is under pressure from the same conditions as the bullet.  (Shooting from inside a shooting house might be worth a point or two per match compared to shooting outdoors in adverse conditions) 
 
Bear in mind though that my experience has been shooting 22rf OH, a few 200 yd matches, as many 100s as I can and some of the 50 yd stuff.  I only started OH 4 or 5 years ago and hope to graduate to center-fire as soon as (when/if) my Mos Mould gets here.  22Rf shot OH and 200 in the EG range conditions as about all the challenge I can stand.   Shooting 22s might aggravate/accentuate the "conditions" factor more that it would for centerfire---if so my perception is skewed
  

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Re: Offhand, again
Reply #29 - Aug 29th, 2011 at 8:33am
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My limited winning a OH match was the Hill match 2nd place some time back at Beeson Range, 10 shots for score any sight, 200 yds.
I had just bought a CPA with a 30X Lyman STS on it and had discussed the higher power scopes with Blender.  I asked him why he shot a higher power scope I think it was a 20x or there abouts, he asked me:  "Because I don't have a 30X"  Ok explain.

He told me you can't hold dead solid, like a rock. You must control the movement instead of letting the hap hazard movement of the body and nerves, like shooting a muzzle loader, control the movement by either a cadence of side to side moving or up and down.

IF you hold the Xhairs in the red bull and the trigger trips, you'll end up with a decent score.

I shot the Hill and got a second place medal and there were good OH shooters in the match, I felt good.
Control is the key not trying to jerk the trigger as involuntary movement happens to get you close to the center.
  
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