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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Sub sonic? (Read 18862 times)
frnkeore
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Re: Sub sonic?
Reply #15 - Aug 22nd, 2011 at 9:47pm
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Next, You have to find as low a extreme spead load as you can. I believe that I could have gotten at least 1/3 smaller groups if I could have reduced the ES by half but, I gave up because I didn't have the 18 twist I needed, it was expensive shooting a once per shot when experimenting and I started developing BP duplex loads for it that later tore up my shoulder.

I hope to get a dedicated rig together before the end of the summer next year. I have a barrel on order for it.

It's not easy starting from scratch in new areas but, it can be worth it. back in the 60's and 70's they said that spitzers wouldn't shoot and now most competitive shooter use only spitzers. That's not to say that the old flat nose bullets aren't accurate but, the wind will move them more than spitzers, guaranteed!!!

A quick thing about wind drift...... The theory is that what causes wind drift is the amount of velocity lost between the muzzle and the target. The higher the velocity lose, the more the wind drift. Where subsonic shines is in it aerodynamics. the air flows over the bullet. If your supersonic, the bullet has to push a shock wave that takes a lot of power to over come. A extremely sharp point does that best but, can't over come the subsonic advantage untill about 2,000 to 2,200 fps. Above 2,200 the speed increase lowers wind drift.

Frank
  

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MikeT
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Re: Sub sonic?
Reply #16 - Aug 22nd, 2011 at 10:03pm
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Maybe the best way to get a good subsonic load would be to shoot PP bullets and BP. Cool

Keep on hav'n fun!
MikeT

PS You guys give me way too many ideas for my own good. Wink
  
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Re: Sub sonic?
Reply #17 - Aug 23rd, 2011 at 6:55am
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Thanks frankeore, thats some good info there. I have read in the past that the best nose shape for subsonic is the round nose similiar to the 22 rimfire round (wonder how that came about) and the 45-70 500 gr. round nose like the old Lyman 457125. I'm sure that like you say it would take a decated mold and a lot of work and I don't know that it would be worth the effort plus the cost and time for a custom mold and God only knows how long that would take.

My biggest problem is that I'm shooting my Schuetzen rifle in a CBA match which only allows 15 minutes for a 10 shot match. And my home range has some serious wind shifting going on ALL the time. I'm shooting a Barnett .323 bullet 1.19 inches long in a 14" twist and have to drive fast just to keep it from tipping at 200 yards. I probably will not get the same wind condition more that 3 to 4 times in a 15 minute period so that means a lot of adjusting going on plus loading and watching and hoping! 

I have rebuilt my wind flags and last Sunday I took 40 cases preloaded with powder and played with that. That does save a lot of time on reloading the same case over and over. Maybe not the absolute most accurate way to do things but time is much more important in this case. I did shoot the best score yet on the 200 yard target of course it was practice day and the winds weren't that bad, naturally.

Thanks everybody for the replys.

Richard
  
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LynnF
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Re: Sub sonic?
Reply #18 - Aug 23rd, 2011 at 5:06pm
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"My primitive mind makes me think it should be, the less time to the target, the less time for the wind to move the bullet."
Bob, I wonder if this is like driving faster to get there before you run out of gas.  Grin
There's bound to be a physicist on this forum who can answer this. If a force, the wind, acts on a moving body, the bullet, what causes the greatest effect on the body, time or velocity, or is it the same for a given bullet and wind?
Lynn
  
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frnkeore
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Re: Sub sonic?
Reply #19 - Aug 23rd, 2011 at 5:22pm
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If you check ALL the external ballist programs, the get the same results. Subsonic rules until at least 2000 fps. 

I'm taking bets at the rate of 10 to 1 pay off Smiley

Frank
  

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westerner
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Re: Sub sonic?
Reply #20 - Aug 23rd, 2011 at 5:47pm
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How will subsonic velocities effect OH scores?  I like light, fast bullets for OH shooting, less barrel time? Does it make a difference?

       Joe.   Smiley
  

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frnkeore
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Re: Sub sonic?
Reply #21 - Aug 23rd, 2011 at 6:00pm
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I'm not sure about my math but, I get .001 second difference in a 28" barrel. How fast can you move? If you want the best OH scores, a 16.5 to 20" barrel is what will make more difference by about 40%.

Frank
  

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Re: Sub sonic?
Reply #22 - Aug 23rd, 2011 at 6:14pm
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My highest OH scores are with a 30 inch barrel. Cant get a short barrel on the target for long. Wiggles all over. Short barrel with a long bloop tube? 

              Joe. 

  

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Re: Sub sonic?
Reply #23 - Aug 23rd, 2011 at 7:31pm
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westerner wrote on Aug 23rd, 2011 at 6:14pm:
My highest OH scores are with a 30 inch barrel. Cant get a short barrel on the target for long. Wiggles all over. Short barrel with a long bloop tube? 

              Joe. 



Using subsonic velocities and appropriate bullets of course.  The effects of wind drift being important in OH shooting as well.   Wink


Didnt want anyone to think I was diverting the thread toward OH shooting. I wouldnt do that.  Of course I wouldnt.  



                     Joe.  Smiley
  

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Re: Sub sonic?
Reply #24 - Aug 23rd, 2011 at 9:07pm
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Barrel time is a factor offhand. Not sure it's a large factor though. Lot of Rimfire Silhouette shooters use short barrels with weight forward to give the balance of long and lag time of short. Does it make a difference ? who knows until you compare for yourself.

I know I was not convinced lock time made any difference until years ago HP silhouette I switched from a 03 Springfield to a Remington 700. Faster lock time made a noticeable difference. I suspect given the small differences with a Schuetzen. Say 1050 feet Sub sonic vs 1450 feet super sonic the additional barrel time is not noticeable.

If we were using 1050 feet Shuetzens compared to same rifle with a high velocity cartridge 3000 fps per second you would see a substantial difference offhand. Few times I have shot my 7mm08 Silhouette rifle on the ASSRA 200 yard target the faster barrel time and less wind drift is noticeable.   

Once I adjust  to the rifle I am shooting however I don't see any real difference in scores.  Could be the Schuetzen that weights half again more, hook plate and palm rest overcomes the faster barrel time ? probably.

While on my soapbox wind drift is not much of a factor in Schuetzen anyway. Timed shoulder to shoulder matches where your ability to wait conditions out is limited makes a substantial difference.  Schuetzen you can wait as long as you like, and put them on the sighter target if not sure. No good reason to shoot in adverse conditions.

In fact if pure score is not as important as match placing it's easier to place high in windy conditions as many other competitors give up or rush their shots. Which would bench shooters rather brag about 250's or first place ?  Offhand first trumps score every time

Meanwhile will launch my 32/40's at about 1450 looking for supersonic arrival on the 200 yard target. You guys win some offhand matches sub sonic I might change my mind.   

Boats
  
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frnkeore
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Re: Sub sonic?
Reply #25 - Aug 23rd, 2011 at 10:41pm
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Here is my take on offhand............. unless you can shoot over 210 consistently, lock time, barrel time and wind drift will not effect your score enough to make a difference or at least know a difference at the target.

As time goes by in this sport, there are fewer and fewer people that can do 220's. When I started in the mid 80's there where a lot of people that could shoot 220's and I admired them greatly. I couldn't do it and never will be able to. I'm getting OT myself but, I consider Feren, Luke, Blender, Brockway and our local (to the PNW) Gary Miller to be some of the best OH shooters, ever. And of them, Gary still shoots. There were at least 20 shooters that scored 2100's or better in the 100 shot matches and a lot of others that could do 220's a few times a year.

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Re: Sub sonic?
Reply #26 - Aug 24th, 2011 at 6:34am
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Frank you are right unless somebody has a base level of skill small changes are not noticeable

On 210's and 220's  Lots of guys out there than can shoot those scores, they are just not shooting Schuetzen.   Blender and Luke are still shooting offhand in CLA matches at top national level.   I am going to shoot the Pennsylvania State CLA match next month and would guess there will be at least two dozen shooters that could shoot a 2100 plus Hudson match. Few that could shoot 2200

Top group of CLA shooters out in the PNW could do very well if they competed in Schuetzen

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frnkeore
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Re: Sub sonic?
Reply #27 - Aug 24th, 2011 at 12:11pm
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That is kind of my point, Boats. They are not in ASSRA, they are else where. They were hear in the 80's and 90's. Why? It was because the matches were here or maybe I should really say because THEE match was was shot with single shots. That match was Coors. Between 1980 and 1989 ASSRA's rolls increased from 200 to 1600. I believe that was the direct result of the Coors matches. Because of Coors almost every shooter in the USA knew of the ASSRA. Now almost no one knows of it. If you were a shooter you wanted to compete and many did. They bought the equipment and went for it. 

Coors was both OH and Bench but, you could not win it if you were a great OH shot!!!

We have nothing to attract the really good OH shooter any more. That's one of the things I miss about ASSRA. I've made the statement before that ASSRA should hold one big truly National match for the 100 shot, include BR at say 50 shots or make it a 100/100 OH BR match but, advertise it and pay off with money or prizes worth something substantial.

Frank
  

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Re: Sub sonic?
Reply #28 - Aug 24th, 2011 at 1:24pm
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Frank.  Good idea.   Wink
  

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Re: Sub sonic?
Reply #29 - Aug 24th, 2011 at 2:03pm
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"I've made the statement before that ASSRA should hold one big truly National match for the 100 shot, include BR at say 50 shots or make it a 100/100 OH BR match but, advertise it and pay off with money or prizes worth something substantial."

And how many are standing in line to organize and run such an event?

I have never seen anything proposed to the board of such a undertaking.

Any offers of such folks?
  
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