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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Shipping a pre-1899 Rifle? (Read 20132 times)
SSShooter
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Shipping a pre-1899 Rifle?
Aug 18th, 2011 at 6:59am
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I'm being told that any gun made prior to 1900 can be shipped directly between buyer and seller without an FFL or C&R involved as it is an anitque. Is this correct?
  

Glenn - 2x CPA 44 1/2 w/22LR (Shilen ratchet-rifled & Bartlein 5R rifled), 38-40RH & 38-55WCF (Bartlein 5R rifled) & 40-65WCF (GrnMtn 'X') barrels
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gewehrfreund
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Re: Shipping a pre-1899 Rifle?
Reply #1 - Aug 18th, 2011 at 8:37am
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Unless it's changed recently, the the year cutoff is 1898, not 1900, but it is correct that antique firearms are not subject to the same rules as "modern" (1898 and later) guns. Technically, I believe the antique has to either be inoperative or in a chambering that is no longer "readily available", but I don't think this provision is enforced strongly if at all.
Keep in mind though that some municipalities still restrict receipt of any firearm, regardless of age.
  
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J. pickup
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Re: Shipping a pre-1899 Rifle?
Reply #2 - Aug 18th, 2011 at 10:26am
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unless you live in New York city or chicago i doubt you will have any problems, heck we can buy antiques by mail even in the peoples republic of California.Try the postal service, UPS is a bust, you'd have to drive 30 or more miles to go to a hub, UPS Stores will not ship even  antiques.The Typical UPS clerk will run and call the police as soon as you  say "gun".a bunch of idiots.
  
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ACGould
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Re: Shipping a pre-1899 Rifle?
Reply #3 - Aug 18th, 2011 at 10:33am
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For what its worth, here is a direct quote from the ATF:


"As defined in 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(16) the term “antique firearm” means —

    …

       any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or
       any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica —
           is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or
           uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or
       any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term ‘antique firearm’ shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon, which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof."

  
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Chuckster
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Re: Shipping a pre-1899 Rifle?
Reply #4 - Aug 18th, 2011 at 10:32pm
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As I read the above, An original 1873 Trapdoor in 45-70 would not be considered an antique. Same for many pre 1898 rifles that you can still buy cartridges for.  More restrictive than I thought or am I mis-understanding? Thanks
Chuck
  
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mwhite49
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Re: Shipping a pre-1899 Rifle?
Reply #5 - Aug 18th, 2011 at 11:04pm
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Chuck, get on line with your state dept of Justice and read the rules for that state, and for the state you are shipping too. Most states could care less if it was made before 1899 and used shells as most are outdated loadings no longer availible at the stores. Can't find 10 gauge at WALMART.
Mike
  
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ssdave
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Re: Shipping a pre-1899 Rifle?
Reply #6 - Aug 19th, 2011 at 12:02am
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Chuckster wrote on Aug 18th, 2011 at 10:32pm:
As I read the above, An original 1873 Trapdoor in 45-70 would not be considered an antique. Same for many pre 1898 rifles that you can still buy cartridges for.  More restrictive than I thought or am I mis-understanding? Thanks
Chuck


Chuck,

Reading it in the legal sense, see that there's an OR between the first (in or prior to 1898) sentence, and the second paragraph.  If either of those conditions is true, it's an antique.  Thus, it is not more restrictive.  Anything made before 1899 is antique in the eyes of the law.  Except in NYC, Chicago, and New Jersey, and maybe a few more cities.

dave
  
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gewehrfreund
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Re: Shipping a pre-1899 Rifle?
Reply #7 - Aug 19th, 2011 at 7:59am
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The gub'mint and their lawyers always make things so clear and concise.......................... Huh
  
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boats
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Re: Shipping a pre-1899 Rifle?
Reply #8 - Aug 19th, 2011 at 8:13am
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The "gun show loophole" liberals always complain about allows me to sit in the duck blind and sell you my shotgun without fear of government prosecution. Also can give my son any kind of firearm for his birthday with the transfer protected. Same with trading single shots at the range during a match.   

Way we follow the rule around here is face to face people we know we buy & sell without worry. When I sell something out of state by mail to somebody I don't know always get my dealer to ship it to their dealer no matter what anybody else says.  He charges me 25 bucks to ship a gun plus actual postage and insurance. Well worth it to me. 

In Virginia we believe Bloombergs New York City Prosecutors  are trying to buy guns from dealers or at shows in order to catch somebody selling Illegally.  Better not to sell than get mixed up with New York City.

Boats
  
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theformer1878
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Re: Shipping a pre-1899 Rifle?
Reply #9 - Aug 19th, 2011 at 8:39am
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I am with Boats on this.  I think the only safe thing to do is to ship to a dealer on out of state sales.  You have no way of knowing what the local or state laws are on the other end and many jurisdictions don't follow the federal rule.  If you want to insist on your "rights" you are welcome to the years of aggravation and legal bills which may ensue.  

I had an argument on this subject a few months ago with some troll who said he wanted to buy my rebuilt 45-70 Sharps Borchardt without going through a dealer.  I even offered to pay the transfer fee, which was trivial in the context of the transaction amount.  I ended up losing the sale, which was probably a good thing. I really don't want to sell a rifle to someone who can't or won't pass the background check and the fact is the rifle was the functional equivalent of a Ruger No. 1.

In addition to the legal issues you will have trouble with some shippers if a firearm is not going to a dealer. Someone will undoubtedly chime in here and say that you can send "antiques" via the US mail, good luck with all that!
« Last Edit: Aug 19th, 2011 at 11:27am by »  
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J. pickup
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Re: Shipping a pre-1899 Rifle?
Reply #10 - Aug 19th, 2011 at 10:55am
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I've shipped scores of rifles, including antiques thru the post office in CA, and never had any problems yet.Now you can't mail handguns, so that's a different thing.I finally got a FFL003 because i'm tired of being ripped off by dealers, they do not want to recieve guns from a non FFL, so thye charge you 80-100 dollars  or even more. I am retired, so i'm cheap when i need to be.
  
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Paul_F.
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Re: Shipping a pre-1899 Rifle?
Reply #11 - Aug 19th, 2011 at 1:10pm
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Quote:


In addition to the legal issues you will have trouble with some shippers if a firearm is not going to a dealer. Someone will undoubtedly chime in here and say that you can send "antiques" via the US mail, good luck with all that!



Actually, "convincing" the US Mail to "take" and antique rifle has never been a problem for me...
Just have a copy of the Domestic Mail Manual (downloadable from the USPS or orderable on paper), and highlight the sections of the DMM that specifically allow shipping antique firearms.
This is the manual that the Postal employees have to follow... When you show them THEIR rulebook, that THEIR managers all the way up to the Postmaster General follows; they don't argue.

Around here, shipping an antique firearm dealer-to-dealer is likely to cost you closer to $100-$150, because dealers will usually demand to do ALL the california paperwork, with fees, plus the cost of shipping, plus the cost of the box, plus the "shop fee" for private transfers, etc etc.

Paul F.
  
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38_Cal
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Re: Shipping a pre-1899 Rifle?
Reply #12 - Aug 19th, 2011 at 1:39pm
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I usually use the post office in town here, but I've used two others from time to time, and all they ever have asked me is if there is anything "liquid, hazardous or perishable" in the box.  Of course I answer "no", and also tell them that it's only hazardous if they drop it on their toes... Wink  I normally ship express mail, insured, with delivery confirmation.  Less chance of things going astray.

David
  

David Kaiser
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boats
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Re: Shipping a pre-1899 Rifle?
Reply #13 - Aug 19th, 2011 at 3:53pm
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Long guns through the mail are legal, at least at my local post office

Boats
  
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theformer1878
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Re: Shipping a pre-1899 Rifle?
Reply #14 - Aug 19th, 2011 at 6:40pm
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I didn't say you couldn't ship through the post office, I said good luck!  I know from personal experience what happens when you pay for USPS delivery confirmation and don't get it.  They cheerfully (or not) offer to refund the delivery confirmation fee.  This is a joke as far as I am concerned.  For high value shipments I use FedEx ground or air exclusively.  The package is logged in and out of facilities and trucks along the way and you can see and track it's progress.  FedEX has never lost or damaged anything on me and the ground service is close in price to UPS.  UPS has delivered an empty box (ammunition and components from Midway) to my door: never again.
  
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