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Peters 22 rim fire ammo - turn of the Century (Read 22592 times)

John Boy Ex Member	Peters 22 rim fire ammo - turn of the Century Jul 25^th, 2011 at 7:15pm	Print Post
	SSRJ article - Nov 2002: Quote: Peters reputation as a producer of extremely accurate .22 Rim Fire ammunition was firmly established at the turn of the century when indoor Schuetzen gallery shooting was at its height in this country. What made it more accurate than other brands ... if anyone has knowledge of the old Peters ammo?


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Bent_Ramrod Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1582 Location: Southern Arizona Joined: Feb 8^th, 2006	Re: Peters 22 rim fire ammo - turn of the Century Reply #1 - Jul 25^th, 2011 at 8:15pm	Print Post
	From "Small-Bore Rifle Shooting" (1927) by E.C. Crossman: "In years gone by certain combinations of rifles and ammunition were recognized as being particularly well adapted to each other, some of the belief being based on fact--the rifles chambered for the one cartridge--some of it based on superstition. Anyhow the belief grew, and some rifles and ammunition were mentioned together in much the same partnership which marks the well-known twins Ham-and-Eggs, Strawberries-and-Cream, Tom-and-Jerry, and Teabone-and-Frenchfries. Some combinations along this line included: Stevens and Peters Winchester and Winchester Savage and U.S. BSA and Remington Springfield and U.S. It is not a bad idea to keep these combinations in mind when trying out one's rifle, but it is a very bad idea to take the matter for granted and stick to some one make which one understood was best in that make of rifle." Enhancing this strictly empirical rule-of-thumb, Stevens barrels were very accurate and set many indoor gallery records, whether or not made or supervised under Pope. And Peters target .22's used their proprietary King's Semi-Smokeless powder which made for much more accurate loads than the smokeless ammo or the straight black-powder loadings of the time. It was a long time before shooters abandoned the semi-smokeless loadings and accepted the newer smokeless target ammunition.


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waterman Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 3003 Location: Behind the Redwood Curtain Joined: Jun 9^th, 2004	Re: Peters 22 rim fire ammo - turn of the Century Reply #2 - Jul 26^th, 2011 at 3:25am	Print Post
	Peters appears to have gone after the precision target shooting niche market to a greater degree than their competitors. Peters loaded the first Long Rifle cartridges in 1887. Stevens advertised & sold the first rifles chambered for the Long Rifle cartridge the same year. Peters loaded their target cartridges with King's Semi-Smokeless instead of straight black from 1887 until WW2. Their target cartridges were uncrimped and were relatively fragile, especially in a match chamber. My 1911 copy of "The Nitrocellulose Industry" says that King's Semi-Smokeless was 80 % fine black powder and 20 % nitrated wood fiber. Peters owned the King's powder works (or maybe vice versa) and Semi-Smokeless was not sold to competitors. Peters also loaded 22 Shorts as target cartridges from the 1880s until at least the post-WW1 era. The same book says DuPont made Lesmok powder, a semi-smokeless mixture with a slightly lower % of nitrated wood fiber, with the remainder being a high quality black powder. Remington, Winchester, Western and the United States Cartridge Company all loaded target ammunition (Long Rifle) with Lesmok from about 1910 (a guess) until WW2. 22 Shorts were loaded with Lesmok beginning about 1907. The 1911 book says the use of Lesmok in the Springfield Model 1903 Gallery Practice Rifle (the Hoffer-Thompson) is the most severe test of Lesmok known at the time of writing.


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John Boy Ex Member	Re: Peters 22 rim fire ammo - turn of the Century Reply #3 - Jul 26^th, 2011 at 9:30am	Print Post
	Ramrod and Waterman: I thank you both kindly for the timely informative and interesting posts. So the answer is Peter's use of Kings Semi-Smokeless and 'finger seated' rounds instead of them being crimped. My own experiences shooting BPCR rounds that have finger seated bullets with a 0.001 to 0.002 neck tension have proven to be accurate reloads. I don't remember if I mentioned it here on the ASSRA forum, but my latest 'project' is reloading 22LR reloads with original gunpowder. If only David Mos would come through with the custom mold, I'd be 100% in production mode! I did a Google book search for "Small-Bore Rifle Shooting" (1927) by E.C. Crossman. The book has not been digitized and no paper edition is available for sale. What I did find, though it is not digitized, was "Hints on King's semi-smokeless powder and Peters cartridges.", the author being King Powder Company. This book too is a rarity. The only copy identified is at DuPont's Hagley Museum and Library in Wilmington, DE. The Hagley is a 2 hour drive for me and is on my To Do List to visit. They have the most extensive historical source documents on black powder, including all one would want to know about DuPont's history related to gunpowder. Reading the book there has been added to the visit To Do List. Bill Knight, The Mad Monk, has been there a couple of times and is the person who put me onto the vast historical information that is available at the Hagley Again, gentlemen, thanks for the informative information. My post question has been answered. Another Big Plus for the quality of the ASSRA forum and the knowledgeable members on it. I tip my my hat to you both


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waterman Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 3003 Location: Behind the Redwood Curtain Joined: Jun 9^th, 2004	Re: Peters 22 rim fire ammo - turn of the Century Reply #4 - Jul 26^th, 2011 at 11:53am	Print Post
	It is relatively easy to find a copy of E.C. Crossman's "Small-Bore Rifle Shooting". You just have to be willing to pay for it. Copies of the original sell for $50 to $65 plus shipping. The book was reprinted in 2003 by Palladium Press. Copies of that reprint go for $100 to $110 plus shipping. The reprint comes in "as new" condition, probably shrink-wrapped. Try (You need to *Login* or *Register* to view media files and links) (the American Book Exchange) and use "crossman" for the author's name. I just checked and found 10 listings. When I tried "e.c. crossman" I did not get any listings. Charles S. Landis' 1932 book "22 Caliber Rifle Shooting" probably contains more useful information if you are trying to duplicate the old loads. IIRC, Landis discusses crimping at length. The 1999 Palladium Press reprint sells for $40 plus shipping in "as new" condition. The original will run from $60 to more than $125. Be advised, however. that neither Edward C. Crossman nor Charles S. Landis are politically correct in our hyper-sensitive society.


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waterman Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 3003 Location: Behind the Redwood Curtain Joined: Jun 9^th, 2004	Re: Peters 22 rim fire ammo - turn of the Century Reply #5 - Jul 26^th, 2011 at 12:05pm	Print Post
	John Boy, are you going to try to reproduce the results from King's Semi-Smokeless with duplex loading?


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Bent_Ramrod Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1582 Location: Southern Arizona Joined: Feb 8^th, 2006	Re: Peters 22 rim fire ammo - turn of the Century Reply #6 - Jul 26^th, 2011 at 3:57pm	Print Post
	There's a pretty good reference called "Peters & King" about the relationship between King's Powder Mills and Peters Cartridge Co. by Thomas D. Schiffer. The book should still be in print; it only came out a few years ago. Not much in the way of industry secret loading data, but a lot of solid history and some really great pictures.


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frnkeore Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 7661 Location: Central Point, OR 97502 Joined: Jun 16^th, 2010	Re: Peters 22 rim fire ammo - turn of the Century Reply #7 - Jul 26^th, 2011 at 4:15pm	Print Post
	Not a bad price on Amazon, either. (You need to *Login* or *Register* to view media files and links) Frank

	ASSRA Member #696, ISSA Member #339
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John Boy Ex Member	Re: Peters 22 rim fire ammo - turn of the Century Reply #8 - Jul 26^th, 2011 at 4:27pm	Print Post
	Waterman - your must be reading my mind! I envision that would be Phase 2 of this 22LR BP project to make some nitrated charcoal and mix up a batch of the 80:20. It will probably be not done in the neat term because of the needed aging of the wood for the charcoal. As for the source for the wood, Ridgway Rifle Club in Ridgway, PA has ACRES of the Alder Buckthorn bushes ... . Would be best cut the branches in the late winter when there is plenty of glucose in the wood. Have shooting buddies in Ridway and am sure they would cut some Alder this Winter and I can bring it home in the Spring of 2012. As for the powder: Wildman sent me some of the Austin Powder Company powder marked with misspelling 'Curtis and Harvey' I made reloads of the Austin powder and the Meteor that I have ... which I believe to be C&H production powder. If the range test bears me out, the imitation Kings powder will be Meteor & Alder Buckthron. If I am wrong, the powder will be Swiss Null-B Thanks gents for the leads on the books. Will have to follow up with a purchase. What I'd really like to have in the library is the Hints on King's semi-smokeless powder and Peters cartridges.


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John Boy Ex Member	Re: Peters 22 rim fire ammo - turn of the Century Reply #9 - Jul 26^th, 2011 at 4:49pm	Print Post
	Well, I believe obtaining the Hints on King's semi-smokeless powder and Peters cartridges is wishful thinking ... Cowen's ... Included is a pamphlet entitled Hints on King's Semi-Smokeless Powder and Peters Cartridges. (EST $4000-$6000) Condition: Excellent. Did find this that may be of interest ... (You need to *Login* or *Register* to view media files and links) And another ... (You need to *Login* or *Register* to view media files and links)
	« Last Edit: Jul 26^th, 2011 at 5:01pm by »

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38_Cal Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2255 Location: Montezuma, Iowa Joined: Apr 27^th, 2005	Re: Peters 22 rim fire ammo - turn of the Century Reply #10 - Jul 26^th, 2011 at 5:14pm	Print Post
	Have you checked with Abby at Cornell Publications to see if she offers a reprint? (You need to *Login* or *Register* to view media files and links) David

	David Kaiser Montezuma, IA
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John Boy Ex Member	Re: Peters 22 rim fire ammo - turn of the Century Reply #11 - Jul 26^th, 2011 at 7:05pm	Print Post
	David, no I didn't call but did multiple searches on Cornell earlier this afternoon. Even in the book section Came up blank


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waterman Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 3003 Location: Behind the Redwood Curtain Joined: Jun 9^th, 2004	Re: Peters 22 rim fire ammo - turn of the Century Reply #12 - Jul 26^th, 2011 at 7:13pm	Print Post
	John Boy, there are many risks & unknowns in trying to make your own KSS. In "The Complete Guide to Handloading" (1937) Phil Sharpe advised anyone with a can of KSS to pour it down the storm drain and not to shake the can while doing so. Back in 1956-57, when I was in a high school chemistry class, our teacher had us make some nitrated wood pulp as a class assignment. Then we took it outside and put a small amount on a steel plate. The teacher hit it with a heavy hammer, a small sledge. The stuff exploded with enough force to blow the hammer head back up into the air. Could you get the desired results with a tiny (0.2 grains?) priming charge of smokeless (maybe Unique) and the rest FFFg black? Did we discuss King's Semi-Smokeless about 4 years ago?


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John Boy Ex Member	Re: Peters 22 rim fire ammo - turn of the Century Reply #13 - Jul 26^th, 2011 at 9:51pm	Print Post
	Quote: Could you get the desired results with a tiny (0.2 grains?) priming charge of smokeless (maybe Unique) and the rest FFFg black? Waterman, giving the subject a sane thought process after I posted doing it from scratch ... sanity is victorious! I have plenty of Unique and it has served me well. Why go to all the trouble making nitrated charcoal? When I was browsing this afternoon, there was an old article that nitrated charcoal was being made in Binghamton, NY. The plant blew and supposedly a goodly portion of Binghamton too. That's when sanity sunk in! If we did discuss King's Semi-Smokeless about 4 years ago ... I don't remember doing so
	« Last Edit: Jul 26^th, 2011 at 10:00pm by »

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westerner Frequent Elocutionist Offline deleted posts and threads record holder. Posts: 12362 Location: Why, out West of course Joined: May 29^th, 2006	Re: Peters 22 rim fire ammo - turn of the Century Reply #14 - Jul 27^th, 2011 at 12:00am	Print Post
	I saw a box of Peters match ammo on Gunbroker last night. Joe.

	A blind squirrel runs into a tree every once in a while.
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