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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Peters 22 rim fire ammo - turn of the Century (Read 22613 times)
CajunRebel
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Re: Peters 22 rim fire ammo - turn of the Century
Reply #15 - Jul 27th, 2011 at 6:50am
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Gentlemen, please keep this discussion going.  I'm spellbound, Smiley and find the history and speculation very interesting.  One question - Do you reuse the 22LR brass and how do you prep it (firing pin dent)?
  
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John Boy
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Re: Peters 22 rim fire ammo - turn of the Century
Reply #16 - Jul 27th, 2011 at 9:14am
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One question - Do you reuse the 22LR brass and how do you prep it (firing pin dent)?
Rebel, if you are referring to the the '22LR Black Powder Project', the answer is no respective to the cases.
The brass are new empty primed cases that were sold individually by Aquila.  They were on a ammo retailer's site.  Five boxes, each with 5,000 new cases.  Needless to say, 4 others and myself, made quick purchases.  I then contacted ArmCor, the importer, asking if they would obtain more from Aquila.  Answer:  Yes, if the order was for 500,000!

As for the reloading procedure for these 22LR reloads:
*  Custom UMC 40gr bullet mold on order from David Mos who has yet failed to deliver.  In meantime using the Lyman 225438 mold that can be only shot single shot - not magazine fed
*  Aquila new empty primed cases, mouth expanded with Lee Universal Expander
*  Loading tray - empty Win 209 primer tray
*  Powder - I'm using an old DuPont FFFFg screened for the 50 and 60 mesh size grains.  Also Swiss Null-B
*  Charger:  Best results obtained to consistenly drop 4gr is Lee Perfect Powder Measure with a 223 case cut off at the web for a drop tube.  The 22 case fits perfectly into the mouth of the 223 case
*  Seating Die:  CH4D, Dave Davidson found one in the shop with the shell holder from a small run he made 5 years ago.  He said he will make another run of them in 4 - 6 months
*  Full Crimp:  The Lyman 225 H&I die in the Lyman Lube Sizer.  Pack aluminum foil into a spent LR spent primer and seat in H&I die.  Invert the loaded 22LR reload into the Lube Sizer, drop the handle and a perfect factory crimp is obtained. No dented noses

Then take a 22LR smokeless box, turn it inside out and put the reloads into it.  If one wants some authenticity, scan and print an old label from old round boxes on auction sales and paste onto the box
That's it - Fast and Easy - 50 Round Boxes

Thus far, John Kort (w44wcf) has done the most accuracy testing.  
« Last Edit: Jul 27th, 2011 at 9:19am by »  
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CajunRebel
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Re: Peters 22 rim fire ammo - turn of the Century
Reply #17 - Jul 27th, 2011 at 10:21am
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Why are you doing this, e.g., authenticity, gallery loads, accuracy, etc.?  I hope once started you provide an article, pictures?  This is fascinating! Smiley
  
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waterman
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Re: Peters 22 rim fire ammo - turn of the Century
Reply #18 - Jul 27th, 2011 at 12:14pm
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I bought one of the other boxes of primed empty LR cases.  My intended use is to make up loads for a Krag Gallery Practice Rifle chambered for 22 Extra Long with a .226" groove diameter.  No black powder, though.  That project is on hold while I experiment with a Waltz die and a Paco Accurizer.  I ordered a David Mos mould to cast .227, but I did not send any $$.

I just looked through my copies of both the Crossman and the Landis books hoping to find something on crimping.  Today I could not find what I thought was there.  I turned to Phil Sharpe's "The Rifle in America", looking at the section describing rimfire cartridges (pp 736-741).  All the early target ammo was uncrimped.  Sharpe wrote that crimped ammunition was introduced in 1900 because the uncrimped ammo did not lend itself to use in revolvers.  The first crimped cartridges were marketed as ".22 Smith & Wesson Long".

In 1904, Peters brought out the crimped ".22 Stevens-Pope Armory" cartridges for the .22 LR conversions of the Krag.  Uncrimped ammo might well lead to problems when used in an instructional setting with neophyte shooters.

Crimping is used in non-target grades of ammo because it is used in repeating rifles, revolvers and auto-loading arms.  The uncrimped stuff might well come apart.

Once an uncrimped round was chambered, particularly in a match chamber, the shooter was pretty much committed to shoot.  Opening the action might well leave the bullet in the barrel and spill powder into the action.  Since we are presumably all shooting single shots and are all relatively responsible folks, we might compare accuracy with crimped vs uncrimped ammo.

« Last Edit: Jul 27th, 2011 at 12:21pm by waterman »  
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Old Center Shot
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Re: Peters 22 rim fire ammo - turn of the Century
Reply #19 - Jul 27th, 2011 at 1:07pm
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CajunRebel wrote on Jul 27th, 2011 at 10:21am:
Why are you doing this, e.g., authenticity, gallery loads, accuracy, etc.?  I hope once started you provide an article, pictures?  This is fascinating! Smiley


I was wondering the same thing. It seems like a lot of time, work, and Money for not much of anything in the results on target dept. 

If the object is to improve the accuracy of the 22 LR I think your only wasting your time and money, if your just doing it for fun to see if it can be done have at it. 

But I hope you don't think your going to improve on the accuracy of ammo like 10-X, Lapua, or RWS etc.  and win matches with your special 22 re-loads, I don't think that's going to happen. 

In this day and age we have the very best 22 ammo we have ever had, much better then what they had back in the old days.
  O C S
  
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John Boy
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Re: Peters 22 rim fire ammo - turn of the Century
Reply #20 - Jul 27th, 2011 at 1:27pm
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Why are you doing this, e.g., authenticity, gallery loads, accuracy, etc.?
Cajun ... Why Not?  When was the last time you shot an original gunpowder 22LR round?  My good friend, w44cwcf, instigator in this project and a devoted historian of old various caliber bullets and loaded ammo - coined a nice expression of why .... Stepping Back Into Time!

Quote:
Since we are presumably all shooting single shots and are all relatively responsible folks, we might compare accuracy with crimped vs uncrimped ammo.
Waterman, so now we are down to 3 unknown buyers of the empty primed cases.  Candidly, between the 5 of us with 25,000 cases ... we could go in business!  A source for empty primed cases is this missing link in this project v pulling smokeless heads and using the cases

OK, crimped v uncrimped: John Kort has been shooting his for accuracy targets that have the heeled bullets crimped ... (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
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I see no reason the rounds could not be shot uncrimped.  All the rounds, UMC originals and Lyman (w/o GC) are heeled.  The CH4D seating die removes the bell and leaves the bullet loose in the case with a slight tension, aka finger seating.  I'll have to load some this way without the H&I die crimp and do a comparison ... using a Stevens Favorite and JM Marlin #3, both with globed pin heads and vernier rears

I want crimped ones also to be able to shoot them magazine fed in accordance with the NRA 22 Lever Action Silhouette match regulation.  Plan to use my Henry Yellow Boy with a globed pin head and peep sight for the matches 

Thanks for the Phil Sharpe's "The Rifle in America" information.  Most interesting.  Envy your numerous library source references 
  
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Winnetou
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Re: Peters 22 rim fire ammo - turn of the Century
Reply #21 - Jul 28th, 2011 at 6:37am
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Here’s the original thread on this topic:

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I purchased one of the 5,000-unit lots of primed .22LR cases, and also sent a down payment several months ago to David Mos for the custom mould.
  
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John Boy
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Re: Peters 22 rim fire ammo - turn of the Century
Reply #22 - Jul 28th, 2011 at 1:41pm
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This morning I played around with a new idea related to the 'Stepping Back in Time', 22LR Black Powder Project that works perfectly ... 
Breach Seated 22LR Reloads!

Seater:  Fill a spent case with melted lead to the mouth
Powder Wad:  Construction paper - kitchen cutting board - spent 22LR case - Brass hammer ... punch the wads out with the spent case.  Then pick them out of the case with tweezers
Charged Cases: Put a slight bell on the case and charge with powder in a normal manner.  Put a wad in the charged case to keep the powder intact

Drop a bullet into the single shot chamber - insert seater plug - close breach - remove plug - insert charged case with slight bell - close breach.  With the longer Lyman bullets (1.20") the bullet is seated into the leade with the bullet engraved just past the driving band.  With a 0.980" length 22LR bullet, a brass plug just past the case mouth (0.040 or longer) will be needed or as Harry Pope said, ' seat the bullet so a 1/16th of an inch is in the leade' 

Next step ... see how they group for accuracy! Grin

« Last Edit: Jul 28th, 2011 at 1:55pm by »  
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frnkeore
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Re: Peters 22 rim fire ammo - turn of the Century
Reply #23 - Jul 28th, 2011 at 2:32pm
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John Boy,
I hate to tell you this but, those bullets will tumble in a 16 twist. The longest bullet that I was able to stablize w/o tipping is .520. 

You don't need to expand the mouth, I never had a case colapse on me in over 1000 rounds. If your using straight BP you may not run into high enough pressures to pop the case but, that may happen with that heavy bullet. Also, I'd try just using a grease wad instead of a card.

I started BSing 22rf's back in the 80's because, I will not buy the $20 a box ammo (was only $12-15 back then) but, never tried it with BP. I still BS or do poorly with cheap ammo. But, now that I have my GF shooting. I have two 22's and 2 CFers to get ready for matches and my time has been limited.

If your serious about BSing 22rf's get a 12/14 twist and a tapered bullet made for it. I worked with my 16 twist for more than 5 years and never replaced the barrel with a faster twist but, now that I've started shooting again, it's it's on my "to do" list. I didn't shoot from '96 untill last Oct. so, I have a lot of catching up to do. 

Frank
  

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John Boy
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Re: Peters 22 rim fire ammo - turn of the Century
Reply #24 - Jul 28th, 2011 at 4:26pm
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Frank, thanks for your details and post.  Your advice for all the dot points you conveyed are well received.  It's always nice to 'go to school' on someone who has already been there.
Both rifles are 1:16.  I ran the Lyman bullet against the Powley Stabilizer calculation and here is the results.                          
     Minimum Twist Rate Calculation  **                  
     SF      1.83            
     V      1250            
     BL      0.52            
     WT      45.8            
     DIA      0.215      TWIST =      16.0
For the Lyman bullet, I'm going to test as crimped - not crimped and BS.  When the custom 40gr mold arrives, may be in for bad news 
  
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w44wcf
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Re: Peters 22 rim fire ammo - turn of the Century
Reply #25 - Jul 28th, 2011 at 4:57pm
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Quote:
SSRJ article - Nov 2002:
Quote:
Peters reputation as a producer of extremely accurate .22 Rim Fire ammunition was firmly established at the turn of the century when indoor Schuetzen gallery shooting was at its height in this country.

What made it more accurate than other brands ... if anyone has knowledge of the old Peters ammo?


John Boy,
Most likely because the smokeless powder used in .22 RF cartridges at that time was nowhere near as developed as what we have today. Also, the semi-smokeless powder filled the case capacity eliminating any powder positioning sensitivity.

Fortunately, I managed to get this box from Wards Collectibles last year.  Smiley  It contains 40 rounds that are in as new condition. I was thinking about trying to shoot some but haven't to date. The priming compound may not cooperate.....
 
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A few years ago I did shoot some 1930's vintage Rem Umc Palma Match cartridges that were loaded with Lesmok, the other semi-smokeless powder.
They went off with a click......bang.     
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w44wcf
« Last Edit: Jul 28th, 2011 at 7:51pm by w44wcf »  

aka Jack Christian  "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." Philippians 4:13&&aka w30wcf&&aka John Kort&&NRA Life Member&&.22 W.C.F. , .30 W.C.F., .44 W.C.F. cartridge historian
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w44wcf
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Re: Peters 22 rim fire ammo - turn of the Century
Reply #26 - Jul 28th, 2011 at 8:11pm
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John Boy,
If your memory is anything like mine, you won't remember that a few years ago I had this book with me at Ridgway. I had made a copy of several of the pages for you.......  THey illustrated targets made with semi-smokeless powder and comments by the target shooters of the day.

I have had an interest in the early semi-smokeless powders since acquiring my 1873 Winchester 44 W.C.F. 10 years ago or so.

Awile back I found a partial box of PETERS Semi-Smokeless and I lost no time in dissecting them, then loaded te powder into modern cases. 
The average charge by weight was 32 grains and was compressed.   

They produced some of the best groups I ever got with the 44-40. Smiley
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w44wcf
  

aka Jack Christian  "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." Philippians 4:13&&aka w30wcf&&aka John Kort&&NRA Life Member&&.22 W.C.F. , .30 W.C.F., .44 W.C.F. cartridge historian
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John Boy
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Re: Peters 22 rim fire ammo - turn of the Century
Reply #27 - Jul 28th, 2011 at 8:25pm
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If your memory is anything like mine, you won't remember that a few years ago I had this book with me at Ridgway. I had made a copy of several of the pages for you.......  THey illustrated targets made with semi-smokeless powder and comments by the target shooters of the day.
John .... Yes, along with the Winchester catalog! Darn, the memory is going to jello!
But it's all coming back ... believe that was the year @ Ridgway I added a Peters 30-30 case to your collection from the box when were were shooting

Post Script:  John and guess what?  Just came up from the basement ... there it is in one of my reference 3 ring binders, all 27 pages! Smiley
« Last Edit: Jul 28th, 2011 at 8:50pm by »  
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w44wcf
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Re: Peters 22 rim fire ammo - turn of the Century
Reply #28 - Jul 29th, 2011 at 8:11am
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John Boy,
Glad that you were able to locate it.  Smiley

Regarding crimp vs non crimp, the Peters Semi-Smokeless .22 LR cartridges from the above box are not crimped. My work so far has been with non crimped cartridges.  By running the finished cartridge nose first into a 225 H&I die, the flared portion is simply restored to the pre flared diameter.

Frnkeore,
Most of my b.p. testing as been in a 1948 vintage 39A.  It actually will shoot the current 225438 (.53" long) aok at 1,100 fps. (4.5 Swiss Null B) At a lower velocity all may not be well........

w44wcf   

 
  

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Re: Peters 22 rim fire ammo - turn of the Century
Reply #29 - Jul 29th, 2011 at 1:10pm
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44,
Thanks for that info. I just looked at the chart for Ideal molds and I was mistaking that mold for the 462 and thinking it was the heavier mold.

Frank
  

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