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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Sharps Borchardt cartouches...can anyone identify? (Read 9072 times)
1886nut
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Sharps Borchardt cartouches...can anyone identify?
Jul 22nd, 2011 at 3:39pm
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Hi guys....I was recommended to re ask this question over here by the CastBoolits folks (who did not know as of this posting). Can anyone tell me whose initials these are on these cartouches? Are they a military man or the plant managers? Is the one forward of the receiver a firing proof?

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I have a military mustket too, and its stock is unmarked, yet I could swear it was not sanded.
  
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frnkeore
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Re: Sharps Borchardt cartouches...can anyone identify?
Reply #1 - Jul 22nd, 2011 at 4:12pm
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Welcome 1886,
I believe Harry will know the answer. He's out of our time zones but, will be on later.

Frank
  

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Old-Win
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Re: Sharps Borchardt cartouches...can anyone identify?
Reply #2 - Jul 22nd, 2011 at 5:25pm
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It's an inspectors stamp, not J.P. Lower, like some have suggested. However that is bigger than most that I have seen.  Bob
  
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harry_eales
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Re: Sharps Borchardt cartouches...can anyone identify?
Reply #3 - Jul 22nd, 2011 at 6:07pm
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I agree with Old-Win it's an inspectors stamp. However very few Borchardts I have seen pictures of have this marking. I therefore believe that it is likely that it was a Military Inspectors Acceptance Mark. Whilst the Borchardt didn't see true military service in the USA several hundred were bought by State Militias and Police Departments and large Rifle Clubs. 

It's likely that it they were Inspectors marking from one of the State Militias that purchased small numbers of these rifles. I am not able to see if there is an armoury rack or shelf number applied anywhere. Different States marked their rifles in different ways and there seems to be little consistancy between them. 

This cartouche has been mistaken for that of J.P.Lower, a gun dealer and gunsmith who purchased large numbers of Sharps Rifles, however he stamped his name and address into the steel. Until someone produces a book in the firearms of the US State Militias, and their markings, it's anyones guess where that marking originated.

That Borchardt is in exceptionally clean condition and has the original ramrod. IMHO whoever buys it should preserve it as is, rather than modify it in any way. There can't be many left these days in such good condition. US$ 900.00 is a very low starting price and given recent prices for the military Borchardt Rifle it should bring well over US$ 2,000.00 and possibly close to US$ 3,000.00

Harry

  
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zrifleman
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Re: Sharps Borchardt cartouches...can anyone identify?
Reply #4 - Jul 23rd, 2011 at 12:54am
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I have seen that cartouche on several Borchardts, mine and others. If memory serves me right, someone on this forum or another correctly indentfied who that cartouche belonged to. Can't remember who or where.
  
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harry_eales
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Re: Sharps Borchardt cartouches...can anyone identify?
Reply #5 - Jul 23rd, 2011 at 2:29am
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Quote:
I have seen that cartouche on several Borchardts, mine and others. If memory serves me right, someone on this forum or another correctly indentfied who that cartouche belonged to. Can't remember who or where.


Hello zrifleman,

I recall that Forum as well, but like you cannot remember where, If I recall correctly it was a couple of years ago now. I didn't keep a record of what the end determination was.

I have tried running the picture of the small cartouche on the fore arm through Photoshop but unfortunately I cannot get the detail clear enough to read. It is a very small stamping and cannot be more than 3/16"  or 0.1875" in dia. The escutcheon directly in front of it is 0.435" wide and the shallow recess in the front of the action body just to the rear of the stamp is 0.600" wide, so a reasonable estimate to the size of the stamp can be made.

I'll so a search of the Forums I troll, to see if I can find it later today.

Harry
  
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harry_eales
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Re: Sharps Borchardt cartouches...can anyone identify?
Reply #6 - Jul 27th, 2011 at 7:10am
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That Borchardt is in exceptionally clean condition and has the original ramrod. IMHO whoever buys it should preserve it as is, rather than modify it in any way. There can't be many left these days in such good condition. US$ 900.00 is a very low starting price and given recent prices for the military Borchardt Rifle it should bring well over US$ 2,000.00 and possibly close to US$ 3,000.00

Harry



I see I'm not going to far off in my estimate for the selling price of this Rifle. With 17 hours left to go the price is now US $2,591.00. Some 33 bids have been received and more are likely. It looks like it may break the the US $ 3,000.00 upper price I thought it may bring. See:-

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Harry
  
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harry_eales
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Re: Sharps Borchardt cartouches...can anyone identify?
Reply #7 - Jul 28th, 2011 at 1:51am
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Well the auction is over, the final price US $4,025.00 which is higher than any other I know of, for the basic Sharps Borchardt Military Rifle.

I must admit that if Gunbroker was open to bids from people outside CONUS and (a big and) I had the money, I would have liked to buy it myself. Certain firearms are a good long term financial investment if your selective in your choice.

In 1900 you could buy a case of 10 Sharps Borchardt Military Rifles in new condition from Schyler, Hartley and Graham, in New York for $100.00. If you bought them singly they cost $11.95. each. Oh for a time machine.  Wink

Harry
  
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thop
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Re: Sharps Borchardt cartouches...can anyone identify?
Reply #8 - Aug 2nd, 2011 at 6:43pm
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I saw one at the James Julia Auction site sell for $4700 (plus all the fees associated with it) a couple years ago.  It went to the people that own "Collectors Firearms" and was resold with a $6500 price tag on it (I followed the serial number).  What it actually went for is anyone’s guess.  It was in about the same condition.  Mine is nearly as good of condition (same cartouche) and I paid around the same price as recently seen on GUNBROKER.  We couldn't identify the cartouche either.
  

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frnkeore
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Re: Sharps Borchardt cartouches...can anyone identify?
Reply #9 - Aug 2nd, 2011 at 7:52pm
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Dam, I now wish I had kept the barrel, wood and furniture from mine. It was about 80% of the one on Gun Broker. I payed $350 for it back in about '90. Then sold all the above stuff for it for $150 about 5 years later, accept the rear sight, that I still have.

The good thing is I now have a great Mid Range 1878 and soon to be a much smaller caliber than 45/70 Smiley

I'm a shooter and would not have shot it in it's original state. It tore my shoulder up as it is in it's 15 lb configuration.

Frank
« Last Edit: Aug 4th, 2011 at 10:00pm by frnkeore »  

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tbird1960
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Re: Sharps Borchardt cartouches...can anyone identify?
Reply #10 - Aug 6th, 2011 at 4:15pm
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The time machine would not do any good. Back then it would have taken 5 twenty dollar gold pieces and I don't know what they are worth today but a lot more than 100 dollars.
  

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frnkeore
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Re: Sharps Borchardt cartouches...can anyone identify?
Reply #11 - Aug 6th, 2011 at 6:02pm
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Your right T-bird. That is the way to adjust for inflation. Gold is about 165 per once right now. 5 X $1650 is $8250 but, That is still a good deal $825 per gun. Or $990 ea. But, that would only be if they were on the surplus market such as the the M14's might be in a free society through the DCM.

Our current dollar is only worth .012 of the 1849 - 1932 dollar.

Frank
  

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BLONDI
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Re: Sharps Borchardt cartouches...can anyone identify?
Reply #12 - Sep 3rd, 2011 at 7:57pm
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I just received this rifle . The small cartouche measures .20 ( TB ? ) and the large one LB is .55 See two images of small cartouche.
C:\DocumentsandSettings\XPSystem\MyDocuments\MyPictures\Smallcartouche.jpg
C:\DocumentsandSettings\XPSystem\MyDocuments\MyPictures\Smallcartouche2.jpg
  
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harry_eales
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Re: Sharps Borchardt cartouches...can anyone identify?
Reply #13 - Sep 5th, 2011 at 2:35am
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Hello BLONDI,

The cartouches stamped into woodwork are often difficult to read as they are frequently small and only lightly stamped. It may be that a clearer definition of the stamp markings can be obtained for photographic purposes by filling the indentation with dry Talcum Powder and removing the surplus with a fine brush (soft artists water colour type) This should render the indentations far more visible and after photographing the powder an easily be removed by use of an old but clean toothbrush.

Harry
  
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