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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) ASSRA and WY Scheutzen? (Read 15434 times)
SSShooter
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ASSRA and WY Scheutzen?
Jul 10th, 2011 at 11:11am
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What are the differences and why do both exist? Do both use the same targets? Thanks.
  

Glenn - 2x CPA 44 1/2 w/22LR (Shilen ratchet-rifled & Bartlein 5R rifled), 38-40RH & 38-55WCF (Bartlein 5R rifled) & 40-65WCF (GrnMtn 'X') barrels
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RSW
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Re: ASSRA and WY Scheutzen?
Reply #1 - Jul 10th, 2011 at 11:25am
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SSS
Both? Throw the International Single Shot Assoc. (ISSA) into the mix and you have three organizations.
The bigger question is why are there three schuetzen organizations. 
That question has been debated for over a decade.
  

Randy W
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There are indeed two Americas. Simply put, it is not the haves and have nots. The two Americans are in reality divided into those who do and those who don't.
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Re: ASSRA and WY Scheutzen?
Reply #2 - Jul 10th, 2011 at 4:26pm
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Throw the NRC in there and you have four.   Do I hear five?

            Joe.
  

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SSShooter
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Re: ASSRA and WY Scheutzen?
Reply #3 - Jul 10th, 2011 at 4:44pm
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Are the targets the same with all groups?

Can sorta understand the A & I thing. Not that many of us speak a language other than English, and we are rather USA rifle-centric. However, as am relatively new here, am not aware of the history/difference between the ASSRA and WY Sch. Other than, perhaps, I understand that the WY Sch is pretty strict about being BP only and we seem to be fine with smokeless loads.
  

Glenn - 2x CPA 44 1/2 w/22LR (Shilen ratchet-rifled & Bartlein 5R rifled), 38-40RH & 38-55WCF (Bartlein 5R rifled) & 40-65WCF (GrnMtn 'X') barrels
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contrary_kid
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Re: ASSRA and WY Scheutzen?
Reply #4 - Jul 10th, 2011 at 11:22pm
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The WSU uses a different set of targets than ASSRA and ISSA, not nearly as high quality or as easy to see the bullet holes as ASSRA targets.
The other BIG difference between this ASSRA forum and the WSU forum is that the WSU forum is about as exciting as watching paint dry!
  
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Re: ASSRA and WY Scheutzen?
Reply #5 - Jul 11th, 2011 at 12:22am
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SSS
The WSU, ASSRA and ISSA all use the same German 25-ring target. Each organization prints it’s own version but the scoring rings are the same size for all three.
To sort out the differences and similarities you need to go to the organization’s web sites and read their rules. It won’t take long for you to figure out that the three groups have more in common than they have differences. Be aware that the similarities and differences are very real though.
One good thing is that you should be able to shoot the same rifle and equipment in all three groups in both open and traditional classes. 
Joe threw in the NRC which is affiliated at least loosely with the WSU and is a bench rest only group. WSU being offhand only.
Hope this helps
  

Randy W
ASSRA 10211  -  ISSA 125
There are indeed two Americas. Simply put, it is not the haves and have nots. The two Americans are in reality divided into those who do and those who don't.
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Re: ASSRA and WY Scheutzen?
Reply #6 - Jul 11th, 2011 at 8:38am
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To understand the differences a short history lesson is necessary. The ASSRA was started in 1948  Since then they have held national matches in the area of Warsaw Indiana. The matches moved around from time to time until some members looking for a more suitable range found Jim Beeson's range in Etna Green IN. Jim was a High power bench rest shooter and gunsmith who used some of his land to build a range and held matches on it a couple of times a year. A friendship developed over the years and Jim offered the property for sale to us having been gypsies in the past we bought the property and have shot there ever since. 
  The targets that we shoot were a reproduction of the old German ring target provided by one of the original members. The first few years standard NRA targets were used. The benchrest target was designed by Claude Rodrick. 
  When the Coors Brewing Co. conceived of the Coors Schuetzenfest the Association was less than 500 members. The first Coors was I believe 1962? and was like a lighting bolt that spurred overnight interest in Schuetzen style shooting. Shooters from all over the country came to golden CO. to shoot Coors and for a short time there was an interesting cross pollination of shooters who had shot in small groups who were suddenly all brought together. After a few years Coors enthusiasm started to wain and when the yuppification of Golden brought negative attitudes directed toward the match Coors dropped their participation. The range at Golden was denied the the fest at the last minute and Dean Miller stepped in and offered a range in North Dakota to hold the event. 

(continued)
  
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40_Rod
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Re: ASSRA and WY Scheutzen?
Reply #7 - Jul 11th, 2011 at 9:03am
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At that match the shooters got together and formed the ISSA to continue the Coors type matches. They started to print their own targets and looked for a home for their match. The NRA Range at Ratone was a new facility then and the matches were moved to Ratone the next year. It has been shot there every year since. 
  Over the years the two organisations have developed separately along a generally similar path. The ISSA Has, over the years had a number of changes to their targets, some compatible with the ASSRA and some not. To this day you will find many shooters who shoot both clubs events and some local clubs who have a bewildering mix of both.   
The WSU is the newest kid on the block. It was formed by Steve Garbe in response to what Steve thought was an unacceptable relaxation of tradition. Their focus is geared more toward black (or original) powder original or original reproduction rifles. 
  While we have more in common than divides us there are still very real differences between the organisations. Many shooters belong to all three and shoot by the rules that govern at what ever match they happen to be at. 
In the end we are all single shot shooters and it is my hope that at some point we can get individual egos out of the equation and hammer the three Associations back together. Kind of like a Damascus barrel.

40 Rod
  
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mes
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Re: ASSRA and WY Scheutzen?
Reply #8 - Jul 11th, 2011 at 10:29am
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The biggest difference in the rules is for offhand shooting as follows:

ASSRA
If you miss the target you get to shoot that shot over with no penalty.
If you miss the scoring rings but hit the target you get 10 points.
Scoring rings to the 15 ring
Sighting shots at any time.

ISSA
If you shot a shot that hits the edge of the target but does not touch a line that is about a quarter inch in from the edge you get to shoot another shot, no penalty.
If you miss the scoring rings but hit the line that is around the edge you get 10 points
Scoring rings to the 15 ring
Sighting shots at any time.

WSU
If you miss the target you lose 25 points.  
If you do not load a bullet and fire the case full of powder you lose 25 points.  
If you forget to put powder into the case and the primer fires you lose 25 points. 
If you miss the scoring rings and they go out to the 10 ring you lose 25 points
After you go to your record target no more sighting shots.
I think the only time you don’t lose points when you intend to fire a shot is when the rifle 
malfunctions and the primer is not hit with the firing pin.
  

Martin Stenback
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Re: ASSRA and WY Scheutzen?
Reply #9 - Jul 11th, 2011 at 3:03pm
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A couple of minor clarifications:
40_rod
You missed the first Coors match date by a couple of decades but you did end the year with a "?" The first Coors match was in 1982, last was in '92. ISSA formed in 1993 after the Prairie Dog match in SD.

mes
ISSA scoring rings extend to target edge. Hits outside the printed scoring rings are scored using an overlay (in other words - a shot hitting outside the 14 ring would be scored with the overlay and might be a 13, 12, 11 . . . out to the target edge)

Other than those two points, I think you guys pretty much nailed it.
  

Randy W
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There are indeed two Americas. Simply put, it is not the haves and have nots. The two Americans are in reality divided into those who do and those who don't.
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Slowshooter
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Re: ASSRA and WY Scheutzen?
Reply #10 - Jul 11th, 2011 at 7:16pm
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A couple of things to add to what 40 Rod, mes, and Crash Landing wrote concerning the target differences:

WSU targets are the same German 25 ring target Except that their targets are printed on larger paper, and extend the score rings out to the 10 ring.  This results in a bottom score of 10 points same as ASSRA, and, (with the use of the template), allows scoring the same as ISSA.

The basic idea SPG had when the rules were set about misses, etc resulting in -0- score for those shots was to recapture what would have happened at an original match.  You step to the line, fire your shot, and the man in the pit would indicate where your bullet went - a miss, no score.  You got 10 shots - period. With the way we run our matches today, this puts everyone on the honor system - something a little difficult for the schuetzenmeister to enforce.   

Jerry
  
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Re: ASSRA and WY Scheutzen?
Reply #11 - Jul 12th, 2011 at 8:37am
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Crash
Of course your right it was 82, this is what I get for writing off the cuff before I have had all my coffee. 
The extra scoring rings are what I was talking about when I said that there were small but significant differences. The extra scoring rings on both targets give the opportunity for higher scores thus although they are the same size bull and rind with they are ineligible for records in the ASSRA. 
Slowshooter, you are right that is the way the old matches were shot. When you went to the line and the hammer fell you were scored on where the bullet went, no hole no score. It is a rule that I agree with. The problem comes down to the way we shoot now from individual benches there is no way to verify that the rule is followed. Add in either money or nice prizes and the cheating skyrockets. The temptation, for some, becomes too great and a few otherwise honest shooters cross the line. Some egos just can't bear to not be in the top three. In the words of Reagan "trust but verify. 

40 Rod

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Re: ASSRA and WY Scheutzen?
Reply #12 - Jul 12th, 2011 at 9:31am
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Our Club offhand matches we squad up shoot in turn on gongs, you turn comes up have to break the shot no stalls.  Scored by the off relay shooter.  Dynamics of shoot on demand are very different than paper targets shoot anytime score yourself.

One match is not better than the other, just different.  ASSRA rule Misses are not counted outside the 15 on paper is a 10 is the way we have to run a match given ranges and conditions.  I enjoy both.

If I could shoot a squadded 100 shot Hudson every shot fired counted no sighters after the sighting period scored to the 10 ring would do it. but can't see how we could run a match that way. Would need pits and targets pulled and marked and our clubs do not have that ablity.

Boats
  
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Re: ASSRA and WY Scheutzen?
Reply #13 - Jul 12th, 2011 at 1:55pm
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This is my take on why there is a separation of powers in the single shot game........... Like 40 Rod said, single shots were a small group until the Coors matches came along (I've posted in the past that Coors did more for this sport than any other single thing).

Now, had the ASSRA stepped up and held a truly national match to replace the Coors Schuetzenfest, today there would be only one single shot organization. One that had nation wide respect and with the money that could do many things to promote this dying area of interest. And like the Coors matches, would have the national shooting sport magazines clamoring to cover it.

At this point, I really don't think that there is anyway to rectify the problem. The leadership of the ASSRA has only focused on the Etna Green area and that's all it has ever done. I don't know if that is to keep from loosing control of ASSRA or if it is just because they can not see that the betterment of the sport is to cater to everyone from shore to shore (by cater, I mean help all affiliated clubs put on,promote and advertise matches). It also builds respect by letting everyone know they are really apart of the organization.

I know that some will be upset by what I'm saying but, it is the truth and it is sad that after all these years that we haven't progressed past the "Coors days" at those days will become known as the zenith of the single shots in modern times. 

People that have studied the sport know that it used to hold the popularity of than the NFL has today and that the prizes awarded were where worth at least $50,000 of today's dollars and that you could make a good living shooting the bigger matches. 

That is what I would like to see!!!

Frank
  

ASSRA Member #696, ISSA Member #339
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Re: ASSRA and WY Scheutzen?
Reply #14 - Jul 12th, 2011 at 3:00pm
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Frank, I pretty much concur with your statements. Here’s my take on what could be a next step: 
There are three (four with the NRC) schuetzen organizations, that’s a fact, we all need to just deal with it. We are not going to link arms and in unison start singing Kumbayah any time soon but there is hope for national unity. If one of the organizations can muster the foresight and wherewithal to sponsor a national schuetzenfest and formally challenge the other organizations to compete, such an event could bring a large number shooters together for a shoulder-to-shoulder match. Such a schuetzenfest could be as simple as using the rules of the sponsoring organization or the the various events could each be fired using the rules of a particular participating organization (such as a traditional offhand event using WSU rules, a bench match using ISSA rules, etc). Either model would work as the rules of the various organizations are not radically different from each other.
Where to hold such an event? Both Etna Green and Cody Shooting Complex facilities are too small to accommodate such a large match. The ISSA is the only organization with a large enough “home” range for such an event. The Coors Range at the Whittington Center outside Raton, NM has 75 covered benches and target backers can be set at either 100 or 200 yards. Using two squads of shooters per day, that range can accommodate 150 competitors.
Any takers?
  

Randy W
ASSRA 10211  -  ISSA 125
There are indeed two Americas. Simply put, it is not the haves and have nots. The two Americans are in reality divided into those who do and those who don't.
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