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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) ASSRA and WY Scheutzen? (Read 15455 times)
40_Rod
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Re: ASSRA and WY Scheutzen?
Reply #30 - Jul 13th, 2011 at 8:59am
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I'll weigh in here. 
First as to the appetite for unification, This waxes and wains with the make up of the various boards. In recent years it is not a question of voting for the best man for the job but a question of who will step up and take the job. This can, and has, resulted in some one with a particular axe to grind taking a board position to further his own personal agenda. In the past, I will admit, some ASSRA board members focus has not gone beyond Etna Green but the same may be said of the ISSA's singular focus on Ratone. Lets face it, both venues have a "home field" advantage for one group or the other and neither is centrally located. 
I found the idea that has merit is the concept of four regionals with a invitation only match for the top 10 shooters from each regional at a central location. My vote would be for St Louis or Kansas City.  My proposal would work this way. The ASSRA would sponsor the an eastern and a mid east regional. The ISSA would sponsor a mid west and a western regional. Each sponsoring association's regionals would be fired under their rules. The finals would be shot under WSU rules in the old style on four full size targets with a judge scoring your ticket just like in the old days. A one day Hudson match just like the Election Day matches. Bench rest could be shot on the next day from seperate benches, but shoulder to shoulder score target and group target fired in three relays each best target wins. 
  I'm not sure how willing any organisation would be to giving up control or how the shooters will respond to getting out of their comfort zones. There is also the expense, something that no one has addressed. This takes money! It takes money for facilitys to shoot, money for vendor tents, portajohns, targets, and to pay the expenses for officials. When Coors footed the bill everything was top notch it must be so again or media will not get behind it. We need a corperate sponser to make this thing work.

40 Rod
  
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RSW
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Re: ASSRA and WY Scheutzen?
Reply #31 - Jul 13th, 2011 at 11:47am
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40_rond - you are of course correct about a need for corporate sponsor(s). The schuetzen clubs would first have to prove their worth so potential sponsors could determine if single shot matches are viable events. Holding qualifying regionals by the ASSRA, WSU and ISSA is similar to the old Coors regional model and could be held without additional support if the clubs buy into the concept. Those “qualifying” match scores could even be taken from matches currently held. A national event for the top finishers is an excellent idea but those top finishers would only be guaranteed a slot at the nationals they could not be the entire event. The range would have to accept all-comers until it is at capacity for the match to make sense financially.
Coors ran its schuetzenfest for a decade but other than generating some customer loyalty among shooters, did not make money. Had it not been for Max Goodwin (a vise president at Coors) there never would have been a Coors match. After he retired, plus the coincidence of other events, Coors quit sponsoring shooting events. In the mid-1980’s Coors budget for putting on the schuetzenfest, excluding regionals, was over $60,000, that did not include a full time marketing employee. Since then, costs have at least doubled and insurance has gone up even more.
The Coors case was a sponsor (re)creating a shooting game. We now have a shooting game seeking a sponsor. The only realistic solution is for the schuetzen clubs, if they have the will, put on national a match, probably a low budget show compared to the old Coors events. You laid out a good starting point, full details would have to be hammered out.
I presented a national match concept to the ISSA board last year and they were cold to the idea. Their focus is on running the organization, Raton nationals plus regionals, as it should be. We all only have so much time to dedicate to schuetzen and there-in lies the rub.
  

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There are indeed two Americas. Simply put, it is not the haves and have nots. The two Americans are in reality divided into those who do and those who don't.
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Re: ASSRA and WY Scheutzen?
Reply #32 - Jul 13th, 2011 at 11:51am
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40 Rod,
I like that idea, although, I'm not sure that restricting the "final" to BP only is a good idea. The 100 shot match started in 1893 and by that time, many were using duplex loads. There are other problems such as, what really constitutes original BP and how you would insure that someone wasn't using duplex loads.

It would also give a East/West rivalry that you need for competition and to search for optimum loads and equipment as they did in the original era.

The ASSRA was founded for these guns to shoot again and if the popularity just gets back to the Coors days, it would increase the value a lot for the people that are just collectors. Look what happened in the mid 20's to the mid 40's with the value of these guns. I've read of $15 schuetzen rigs being bought in those days (about $450-500 in today's money). These rifles deserve respect and the honor they brought when this country built the best right here on our shores!

As far as the officials getting paid to do there job, I would put that off until much later. The shooters aren't going to be paid for making the event possible and it costs them as much or more to attend. That could happen after the top 10 shooters were well rewarded and the rest got something to take home.

The offhand aspect of our shooting is HARD, few can do well at it, not even if they have the best equipment or the most accurate load that can be assembled. I would like to see that part come to the forefront but, all be rewarded well that make it to a true National Championship Match.

Yes, I know that I'm dreaming but, wouldn't it be nice......... money, prizes, national media reconition and the honor of being able to say that you own such a rifle.

Frank
  

ASSRA Member #696, ISSA Member #339
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Re: ASSRA and WY Scheutzen?
Reply #33 - Jul 13th, 2011 at 8:33pm
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WSU is not just BP. So where is the BP only coming from? Great idea.
  
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Re: ASSRA and WY Scheutzen?
Reply #34 - Jul 13th, 2011 at 10:24pm
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Frank, 

  There’s nothing wrong with dreaming... that's how my projects get moved from thoughts to paper and then to the machinery. We all gotta start somewhere.     Smiley

40_Rod, 

    Good points made, and in principle, I do like your concept and your proposal. 
    I don’t think an umbrella organization establishing unification of the associations is needed at this time, but could come along later if felt necessary. NOT having one might alleviate some initial concerns about any one clubs loss of control.
    For a present day national invitational challenge, cooperation among representatives of the associations would be required, and perhaps one or two representatives from each participating group would be sufficient to form an interim board for the first challenge. Then see what develops and is needed from there. 

    The following part of a post on this forum some time back by Steve Garbe makes me think the WSU might just be interested in participating...
Quote:
I would really like to see an old-time "telegraph match" between the WSU and the ASSRA...and our Fall Election Day match in October would be the perfect time.

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

    If the ISSA or another organization chose not to officially participate, but a large number of it's members entered independently shooting under ASSRA or WSU rules, and the challenge proved to be a success, the ISSA board might eventually come along at a subsequent challenge. There's a lot of "ifs" involved, but that's always the case with anything new. 

    There's been a lot of good input from all of the posts on this thread, and for my two cents, I think it's a good idea that should be kept simmering. 

    Regards to all,
         BP


Note: Edited link to get to the correct post on the page.
« Last Edit: Jul 14th, 2011 at 2:29pm by BP »  

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Re: ASSRA and WY Scheutzen?
Reply #35 - Jul 14th, 2011 at 1:18am
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Here on the far left coast, we are far away from all such centers of schuetzen activity.  We do have 2 Schuetzen groups, one at the Long Prairie range and another at the Redwood Gun Club.  A couple of our shooters are ASSRA members and about a half-dozen of us participate in some of the WSU activities.

We have had an Election Day Hudson Match on our range schedule since last November.  It will only take a couple of e-mails to bring our two groups into participation in a "telegraph match".
  
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Re: ASSRA and WY Scheutzen?
Reply #36 - Jul 15th, 2011 at 7:05am
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One problem with the above proposals. The idea of an 'invitational' or 'qualifying' matches is antithetical to growing/expanding the sport. Both or either would limit participation by members who would like to shoot but have not been invited or have not qualified. Any national match should be open to all who may wish to shoot. Why would a vendor want to show up and rent a tent if the number of folks who would show up is 'limited'? Same with any coverage in the media, corporate sponsorship, etc. Regional/qualifying matches are a good idea for only one reason, and that is to put folks into the proper class based on their performance (Master, AAA, etc.) and not to limit their participation. And, regional matches should be open to all, as well.
  

Glenn - 2x CPA 44 1/2 w/22LR (Shilen ratchet-rifled & Bartlein 5R rifled), 38-40RH & 38-55WCF (Bartlein 5R rifled) & 40-65WCF (GrnMtn 'X') barrels
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40_Rod
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Re: ASSRA and WY Scheutzen?
Reply #37 - Jul 15th, 2011 at 8:57am
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There is no perfect solution to any of this. The only way we are going to get any kind of corperate backing is to present a united front and frankly we are too fractured for that. The first one or two might have to be financed by the 3 associations to try and draw interest and there is little appitite in any of the organisations for spending money that they don't have. All of this is great pie in the sky untill you have to reach in your pocket and pony up money. Until the Associations boards can agree to work together this is all looking in the Sears catalog before Christmas. 
  My personal experiences with trying to bring closer relations by offering pages in the Journal for other Associations news was met with silence. How can you talk about spending money together when you can't even get them to take something for free?
  As far as anybody who shows up, competing - not feasible. The way I laid it out, in the last match you would have 40 Offhand shooters shooting on one day for a Hudson match and 40 shooters shooting in benchrest matches on a second day. That's 80 shooters even considering that some might qualify in both I couldn't see less than 60 top shooters competing. So that's 4 events to choose the best and an event to find the best of the best. No one wants to see an an accountant from Peoria suit up for the Superbowl.

40 Rod
  
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