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What caliber could this be? (Read 3169 times)

Paul Tummers Ex Member	What caliber could this be? May 13^th, 2011 at 10:28am	Print Post
	I already posted under the title 9,5x47R, and also attached some pictures of the rifle. Today it arrived by mail, it looks very good, only, it is not a 9,5x47R caliber rifle! On the rifle there is no maker's name, no proofmark, no caliber indication at all. I made a sketch of a wax ingot I made from the chamber, it is in metric, and most of the measurements are made from the rim upward to the neck. Hope i get some help!


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jfeldman ASSRA Board Member Offline Posts: 1083 Location: Imperial Beach, Ca Joined: Nov 5^th, 2005	Re: What caliber could this be? Reply #1 - May 13^th, 2011 at 7:32pm	Print Post
	Hi Paul and welcome to the forum. I may not be of much help, but would suggest that you post the pics of your new rifle on this thread as some may not have seen it in the other posting. If I'm reading you sketch correctly, I'm guessing that the bore size might be about .415 or so? Also was wondering if there are any markings under the forearm on the bottom of the barrel? Hopefully some of our more knowledgeable members will chime in. Regards, Joe


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waterman Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2838 Location: Behind the Redwood Curtain Joined: Jun 9^th, 2004	Re: What caliber could this be? Reply #2 - May 13^th, 2011 at 10:25pm	Print Post
	Welcome to the Forum, Paul. The caliber is a puzzle. I have used "European Sporting Cartridges" by W.B. Dixon as a reference. This looks to be one of several 51mm or 52mm MB (Mauser Base) Pre-WW1 target cartridges. The 14mm neck length Dixon says is a Utendoerffer (later RWS) design. Other makers used shorter neck lengths. The 13mm base diameter and 15mm rim diameter are common to all. Could be a 10.25 x 52R or a 10.5 x 52R or a 11x52R. All date from 1880-1890 and were dropped from production in 1914. My "best guess" is 10.25 x 52R MB. But if you add variations in individual gun makers' tooling and the tendency of ammunition manufacturers to give cartridges proprietary labels (indicating a proprietary design even if it was not) and a complete lack of standardization with all these old target rifles, any of several old cartridges may actually fit the rifle.


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Paul Tummers Ex Member	Re: What caliber could this be? Reply #3 - May 15^th, 2011 at 2:23am	Print Post
	I attached the picures. It indeed looks, like it is some kind of those old Schuetzen calibers based on the old 11 mm Mauser cases, and indeed one of the 52mm case calibers, and I think, the old Mauser 11 mm cases or the .45/70 cases would be good parent cases for this? Perhaps the easiest thing to do is just make a good Cerrosafe casting and have a custom case-forming die, a sizing die and a seating die made for it and have Mountain moulds making me a casting block for the bullet, and than load for it and just shoot it! Looks, like this rifle was stolen before it had to go to the Proof house, I never have seen a European rifle without proof marks! One of the first things i did was removing the fore end- nothing there either!


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mwhite49 Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1600 Location: Camarillo California Joined: Nov 14^th, 2007	Re: What caliber could this be? Reply #4 - May 16^th, 2011 at 10:17pm	Print Post
	Hi, under the forearm should be the proof marks and if your lucky a makers name, if it is a guild gun then it may not be marked except for proof marks. The rear sight sure looks like a Swiss one to me and the cartridge drawing looks like a Swiss Schuetzen shell. Hope this helps Mike


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waterman Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2838 Location: Behind the Redwood Curtain Joined: Jun 9^th, 2004	Re: What caliber could this be? Reply #5 - May 17^th, 2011 at 9:47pm	Print Post
	I have an early German Martini without proof marks. I have been told that the lack of proof marks might mean that the gun was made before proof testing of the barrel was made law. That varied by country & region. To make cases for this rifle, you need a parent case with a 15mm rim, preferably Mauser Base, and a 13mm case head diameter just in front of the rim. Is there someone in Europe who makes cases in the same way that Rocky Mountain Cartridge Co. does here? Can RMC cases be exported?


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Paul Tummers Ex Member	Re: What caliber could this be? Reply #6 - May 22^nd, 2011 at 12:37pm	Print Post
	I got some Cerrosafe and was able to make a good cast of the chamber, throath and about 1 cm of the rifling, things do look a little different now, and it looks to be a 10x52R Normalpatrone fuer Schuetzen. I'll send the cerrosafe cast tomorrow to CH-4 dies and have them made the complete set, fumbling around with all kinds of other things will not help, I am afraid , and I want to know what this old rifle is capable of. I already picked a design for the bullet, not too heavy and not too long because a 23 inch rifle twist is not very much and at a speed of 1000ft/sec. I have doubts about stabilizing a long, heavy bullet


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