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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) no bolt guns? (Read 27822 times)
Cat_Whisperer
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Re: no bolt guns?
Reply #30 - May 11th, 2011 at 12:27pm
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So which way on the Werndl?

I'd like to know.
  

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38_Cal
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Re: no bolt guns?
Reply #31 - May 11th, 2011 at 12:56pm
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It has a breechblock that rotates, but does not draw back, as with a "typical" bolt action rifle...it's much like a Snider in that respect, except that the Snider block moves up, out of the action, and the Werndl moves down into the action.  If I was running a Schuetzen match, I would allow it.   

David
  

David Kaiser
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westerner
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Re: no bolt guns?
Reply #32 - May 11th, 2011 at 1:17pm
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I've often wondered what would happen if a shooter showed up at a ASSRA match with a rifle like the one KWK posted.  That would really make a Schuetzenmeister groan. Dont know if I would have the heart to turn someone away. The desire to see the old relic shot again would also make it tough. If the guys wife was handing out home made cookies, it would be impossible to turn them down.   

I guess we'll find out for sure when one shows up at a match. Never heard of one.  Oops! I do remember a Mod 71 being shot at a ASSRA match in Tacoma in the early nineties.  It wasnt a Schuetzen rifle either.   

            


                          Joe.
  

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westerner
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Re: no bolt guns?
Reply #33 - May 11th, 2011 at 1:21pm
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40_Rod wrote on May 11th, 2011 at 7:32am:
There already is one..... Its the Cast Bullet Association

40 Rod
 

Grin Grin  *snickering* Made my day!! 

      Joe.  Smiley


  

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40_Rod
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Re: no bolt guns?
Reply #34 - May 11th, 2011 at 1:24pm
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If some one showed up with the schuetzen pictured we would all ooh and ahh then the shcuetzenmeister would point out the no bolt-action rule. He would be allowed to shoot, but his score would not be considered for placement. It would be the same thing if someone showed up with a Springfield 30-06 free rifle from the 30s.

40 Rod
  
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KAF
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Re: no bolt guns?
Reply #35 - May 11th, 2011 at 4:15pm
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Section 1.0†† Single Shot Rifle
 A single shot rifle is defined as a breech loading cartridge rifle without magazine or provision for additional cartridges, in which the action must be operated, and in which a cartridge or shell must be manually inserted for each shot. Bolt-action rifles are specifically excluded regardless of age or model. The action may be of the falling block, tipping block, rolling block, tip up or any similar type whether made recently or in years past. Regardless of the action type, the rifle shall basically conform to the style and appearance of rifles made from the Civil War era to 1914 period either here in the U.S. or elsewhere. This will include both factory made rifles and rifles fabricated by custom gun makers of that period.

In any readings of the constitution and rules, I have only seen "Scheutzen" mentioned one time.

It says the 25 ring target used by the ASSRA is based on the german schuetzen target, no other mention is anywhere I can find in any ASSRA document about rifles of anything else.
  
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ledball
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Re: no bolt guns?
Reply #36 - May 11th, 2011 at 5:49pm
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MP's bolt rifle looks like A Neidner's "Hamburg" rifle" used by F Mann in his book "The flight of the Bullet"--think it was kind of a screw bolt with six or eight locking lugs---or maybe not.    ledball
  
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Romeo 33 Delta
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Re: no bolt guns?
Reply #37 - May 11th, 2011 at 6:11pm
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Guess my Ward-Burton's out, right?
  
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MP
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Re: no bolt guns?
Reply #38 - May 11th, 2011 at 6:25pm
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Just so there is no misunderstanding I posted the picture of an American Single-Shot Schuetzen bolt action rifle for educational purposes only.  I posted it because of “There weren't any bolt action Schuetzen rifles here” comment. 

I have no interest in what the ASSRA finds allowable for matches or not.   
  
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QuestionableMaynard8130
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Re: no bolt guns?
Reply #39 - May 11th, 2011 at 8:02pm
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one must consider that the style of offhand shooting that WE in the ASSRA consider "schuetzen" is somewhat an artificial construct.  Back in Europe much of the later Swiss/Germanic shooting was done using "Militia style" rifles and Mil-ISSUE ammo.  naturally this included early big bore BP bolt guns.   Much of the tradition and some of the forms used as well as some of the nomenclature harks back to the crossbow and handbows of an even earlier era. 

The American shooter(---drawing a blank on his name---And I serialized his memoir when I was editor---) who traveled   supporting himself with his shooting made a trip to Europe to compete there and had to outfit himself with a "needle-gun" and ammo to compete

When ASSRA's founders created the organization, their intent was to preserve enjoy single shot rifles.   Competition was one part of it, as as collection, and hunting and restoration/gunsmithing.  IN a way they were broader minded than we are.  They had a more open midset that I often see.  they enjoyed their single shot high speed jacketed bullet  rifles.  While they probably would have been aghast at someone re-barreling a Schoyen or Pope original target rifle into a 219 Zipper; they seem ot have had no problem with making a varmint rifle out of a run of the mill plain hunting single shot.  I'm sure they were aware of a few schuetzenized turn-bolt rifles, just as they would have been of schuetzenized lever actions.    BUt they clearly and carefully wrote the ASSRA rules to keep them out.   

I'd be willing to bet that a careful search would turn up a few turnbolt and leveraction rifles used in local "schuetzen" matches in the 1st quarter of the past century  where run-what-you-brung was permitted.

But ASSRA made no allowance for them and while we may quibble here on this e-forum over all sorts if arcane issues  I would not bet yesterday's used doughnut  that that'll be changing
  

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Cat_Whisperer
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Re: no bolt guns?
Reply #40 - May 11th, 2011 at 8:40pm
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QuestionableMaynard8130 wrote on May 11th, 2011 at 8:02pm:

...
I would not bet yesterday's used doughnut  that that'll be changing


safe bet.
  

Cat Whisperer (trk)
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KWK
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Re: no bolt guns?
Reply #41 - May 11th, 2011 at 10:02pm
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Quote:
In any readings of the constitution and rules...


Was this senseless prohibition on turn bolts in either the association constitution or in the earliest rules? As I recall some recent editorials, it was not.
  

Karl
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Re: no bolt guns?
Reply #42 - May 11th, 2011 at 10:26pm
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KWK
If you think it’s a “senseless prohibition on turn bolts”, then put together a large enough constituency and change the rules. 
It’s that simple.
  

Randy W
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There are indeed two Americas. Simply put, it is not the haves and have nots. The two Americans are in reality divided into those who do and those who don't.
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KWK
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Re: no bolt guns?
Reply #43 - May 11th, 2011 at 11:02pm
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That's the idea behind these posts.  Wink
  

Karl
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Re: no bolt guns?
Reply #44 - May 11th, 2011 at 11:21pm
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KWK wrote on May 11th, 2011 at 10:02pm:
Quote:
In any readings of the constitution and rules...


Was this senseless prohibition on turn bolts in either the association constitution or in the earliest rules? As I recall some recent editorials, it was not.


I believe in the early years even bullets with jackets on them were allowed, and it would be very easy to prove that they were being used way before 1914, it's been said that the old timers would use any new ideas that would be a benefit to the accuracy of their single shots, but now you cant even use gas checks, goes to show ya how much we have progressed over the years. I guess we should all be happy and thankful that we are allowed to use modern scopes that are made in japan
  O C S
  
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