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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Re: Coup De Gras (Read 9782 times)
Dave
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Re: Coup De Gras
May 5th, 2011 at 7:51pm
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Here is something to think about:   (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
  
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screwloosetc
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Re: Coup De Gras
Reply #1 - May 6th, 2011 at 10:51am
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I think they should have burried him in a pig pen to give the rest of them some thought about how they could wind up without the virgins
Tom
  
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QuestionableMaynard8130
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Re: Coup De Gras
Reply #2 - May 8th, 2011 at 7:44pm
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I'm inclined to think it was well managed,  quick clean and nearly surgical.  very little collateral damage.   I can imagine that some guys in other places, Libya, Syria, etc are giving serious thought to their security and who they can trust in-house and waking up at night with nightmares of helicopter rotors going thwack-thwack-thwack on their roofs.  Nothing like the long hand of doom reaching out of the darkness to grab you by the throat


btw: did you hear about the guy walking into the local bar and ordering a "BinLaden"
  bartender asks "what's that?" 
guy answers "two shots and a splash" Grin
  

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JohnM
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Re: Coup De Gras
Reply #3 - May 8th, 2011 at 9:10pm
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Europeans seem to be having trouble differentiating law enforcement actions and war.
  
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Dave
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Re: Coup De Gras
Reply #4 - May 8th, 2011 at 10:48pm
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Me too.  Don't get me wrong, I am glad he is gone.  It isn't so much the difference between war and law enforcement it is was the killing needed, was there a choice.  I wouldn't get my undies all bunched up if they just sent a Predator in but here the facts are not clear as to the need to execute him on the spot.

That said I can understand why they wanted to make sure he didn't start talking with his early history and connection to US activities.  Then there is the whole problem about what to do with him if we had him alive.  Waterboarding might have been interesting.

I rarely find myself in agreement with the once great nations of Europe, particularly the chocolate making countries but I do find all the flag waving and victory laps a bit distasteful.

I do agree that the action will give some of the mouthier petty tyrants pause for thought.

OK, pile on.
  
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JohnM
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Re: Coup De Gras
Reply #5 - May 9th, 2011 at 12:25am
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Well, I think the main difference might be, if it was a law enforcement action, the U.S. Marshals would have led the charge.  I can only speak for myself but, if I was violating another countrys territory, in the middle of the night, and I was going into what was identified as an armed compound, guarded by terrs, and was going through a door after a know armed combatant and terr, who said every American should be killed and who we had been at war with for ten years, I don't think I'd take the time to see what his intentions were.  The Seals were already shooting before they got to his room.  If he wanted to surrender, he had time.  No different than an ambush patrol.  See the enemy, shoot em.  Neither Bin Laden nor anyone else should expect that those men would act any other way.  I for one wouldnt want to be the one Seal killed because he waited for Bin Laden to shoot first.
  
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Dave
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Re: Coup De Gras
Reply #6 - May 9th, 2011 at 9:07am
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After posting above I read an article in this week's Economist, Assassination, A Messy Business, page 24, which asks the questions I have and more much more elegantly than I could ever do.

I can't make the end justify the means.  Then there is the botched handling of the story.  Why was it made public?  The evolving fact pattern.  The quick disposal of the body where it could never be found (distruction of evidence, obstruction of justice).  The gap in the video (remember Rosemary Woods?).

Dave
  
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JohnM
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Re: Coup De Gras
Reply #7 - May 9th, 2011 at 10:41am
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Destruction of evidence, Obstruction of Justice??  I think you just proved my initial point.
  
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trapdoor Dick
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Re: Coup De Gras
Reply #8 - May 9th, 2011 at 10:48am
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I too have read all the "comments" about invading a sovereign nations territory and murdering their people.  For all citizens everwhere who who raise these concerns, I ask you. What was legal about foreign nationals hijacking 4 commercial aircraft full of American citizens and using them to kill thousands more of American citizens?  'Nuff said. 

Dick
  

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for dinner. Liberty is a well armed lamb. - Benjamin Franklin
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Re: Coup De Gras
Reply #9 - May 9th, 2011 at 3:05pm
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At this stage the Paki's are only two steps from being a nuclear armed failed state. One hopes that the shock of this "invasion" of a "sovereign state" will be a wake up call for their elected government to do a housecleaning of their own rogue elements in the army and intelligence
  

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Dave
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Re: Coup De Gras
Reply #10 - May 9th, 2011 at 4:37pm
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Don't get me wrong, I am not a limp writsted lib by any means.  The Seals did a great job and I am not disappointed in the result.  Whether or not the operation was a law enforcement action and whether or not it was a lawful exercise of authority are two different questions.  My questions relate to the latter.  Additionally none of us know the exact circumstances of the killing.  Without that knowledge we cannot tell if the death could have been avoided and I think we all would agree that summary execution is not proper conduct for civilized people.

One more thing, I appreciate that this didn't turn into one of those nasty threads that such a topic can easily become.  This whole thing is a very complicated situation and there are no bright line answers, just lots of questions.
  
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JohnM
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Re: Coup De Gras
Reply #11 - May 9th, 2011 at 11:03pm
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Dave, I appreciate your feelings.  However, while all of our "friends" around the world are indignant, there was little other choice.  You may or may not recall but, several years ago, DEA did a snatch and grab on a cartel leader, I believe in Mexico.  They brought him back to the U.S. to stand charges.  The Federal Court ruled that his rights had been violated and kicked him loose.  Charges could not be brought against him for the crimes and he was free to return home.  That decision in now the law of the land.  Shift to Bin Laden.  He's a mass murdered of U.S. Citizens.  He wouldn't fight so he wasn't likely to die on the battlefield.  He wouldn't volunteer to come to the U.S. and no other country would extrdite so he wasn't going to stand trial.  If the SEALS brought him here, it might have looked nice for the Europeans but he'd be set free by the courts.  From a practical standpoint, it was either kill him or forget him.  I think it's wonderful that the Europeans are so worried about how and why a man dies.  But let's worry about the dead in order.  Starting in New York, the Pentagon and Pennsylvania.  Once we get through the crush deaths, the burnings, the people leaping from skyscrapers, the body parts that couldn't be identified and the beheadings.  They'll think Bin Laden got a deal.  I know I do.
  
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Dave
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Re: Coup De Gras
Reply #12 - May 9th, 2011 at 11:38pm
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John, I appreciate your feelings on the subject but my comments were based on thought not feelings.  There are good points to both sides of the discussion but there are still nagging questions and many of those will not be answered because of the disposal of the body.  The more the story develops the more it looks like a coverup.

In regards to our criminal justice system it was set up with the idea that it was better to let 10 guilty go rather than convict on innocent.  And then we get screwballs like the 9th circuit.  Yes our system has its flaws but we can't drift away from being a nation of laws.
  
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rustyrelx
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Re: Coup De Gras
Reply #13 - May 13th, 2011 at 9:56am
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Was not the press telling us that the Seals "thought" that bin Laden was making a move for a gun? Oh and using a woman as a shield?
Also tell me about the timing. Was not a phony birth certificate just released? Tell me all about the publicity now from the birth cert. Cry
Seems we sometimes have a short memory. Myself included as I get older. Shocked
Don
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Coup De Gras
Reply #14 - May 13th, 2011 at 10:13am
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Me too.  Don't get me wrong, I am glad he is gone.  It isn't so much the difference between war and law enforcement it is was the killing needed, was there a choice.  I wouldn't get my undies all bunched up if they just sent a Predator in but here the facts are not clear as to the need to execute him on the spot.


Not sure I understand your logic Dave? You're OK with sending a Predator that would not only kill Bin Laden and EVERYONE else in the compound, but question whether they needed to shoot him? 
I think taking selective targets that are threats seems a much preferred method. They could have killed his youngest wife when she rushed them to protect him, but they selectively put her down with a leg shot. 
I've got no problem with the methods used, and the end result. I understand the cheering and celebration, but I also understand how it looks to other nations. Let's see how they would react if they had jets flown into their country and killed several thousand innocent citizens. Might change their way of looking at the results, and the celebrating.
  

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