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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Rolling blocks superseding Sharps in Creedmoor? (Read 16277 times)
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Rolling blocks superseding Sharps in Creedmoor?
Feb 18th, 2011 at 12:52pm
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Hello, I was wondering if at some point in the long-range matches at Creedmoor, the Remington rolling blocks or hepburns superseded the 1874 Sharps.  I know the Sharps 77' was designed to allow for a heaver barrel and still maintain that 10 lb. weight limit.  How about the Ballard..I know they were made up into long-range rifles..how popular were they?  Thanks guys!
  
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harry_eales
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Re: Rolling blocks superseding Sharps in Creedmoor?
Reply #1 - Feb 18th, 2011 at 3:04pm
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From what little information I have about the Creedmoor Matches the ratio of Sharps to Remington Rifles was approximately 50:50. Some Remington users, especially Hepburn himself, obviously prefered to use his own design of action, whilst others used the Rolling Block. The latter was apparently regarded as unsafe by other competitors as it was prone to accidental discharge, possibly because of a light trigger pull or perhaps bad or unsafe gun handling. Not all very competant marksmen are necessarily safe gun handlers. 

Certainly the Sharps Borchardt 1878 rifle, (actually in production during 1877) was highly regarded and several of the British competitors bought them from the Sharps Factory after a visit during the competitions.

I'd love to see a real annual revival of such Long Range Rifle Competitions. That would really be something to watch, using original period rifles of course, and shot to the original rules as to overall weight and trigger pull.

The Creedmoor Competitions only lasted a few years and I don't recollect ever hearing of a Ballard rifle being used in them. Others may of course know differently.

Harry
  
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Re: Rolling blocks superseding Sharps in Creedmoor?
Reply #2 - Feb 18th, 2011 at 3:47pm
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Harry,
I would also like to see a revival of the original Creedmoor type matches using the rules of the period.
However I don't think they would be popular.
I don't think many of todays shooters could take the recoil of a 10 lb. 45-100 for very long, and they would have to shoot without support, no X-sticks, wrist rest or sling.
Those old rules were written in the days when Iron Men sailed wooden ships.   Smiley
  
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Re: Rolling blocks superseding Sharps in Creedmoor?
Reply #3 - Feb 18th, 2011 at 3:57pm
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The Ballard # 7s came out just a bit late to take a full share of fame in the early long range matches starting in 1874.  Ballard made many fine long range rifles. By the time they became popular in such events LR shooting was in decline. 

I used a 10 pound Sharps Borchardt rifle at 1000 yards.  Raton 1992? 3?

45/90 - 540 grain bullet, duplex load.  I was younger dumber and tougher back then.  Ron Long won the match with a Ballard 40/65.  His frog Ballard. 

                 Joe.
  

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Re: Rolling blocks superseding Sharps in Creedmoor?
Reply #4 - Feb 18th, 2011 at 5:52pm
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In my research I have found that the Remingtons were highly favored from the Mdl 74 Sharps after the 2nd year of Creedmore competition. By 1876 mostly Remingtons. In 1877 the Borchardt was initiated and fell into great favor among the competitors. Some being taken back to the United Kingdom. Some Ballards were used succendingly. Mr Hepburn was an inventor and in the beginning competition barrels by Remington had his initials on the bottom of the barrels. What seems to be evident is that he had his hands on all the long range rifles by Remington. He used a rolling block in those years. His patent action was for shooting prone with limited movement to recharge a rifle.
Creedmore competition was renewed about 25 years ago by invitation. Competition was matches anywhere in the world and everywhere so it seemed. Last one I remember was in South Africa in the late 80's. I'm not sure if the competition is still going on or not but have not heard of anything.
 Don   rustyrelx
« Last Edit: Feb 20th, 2011 at 10:28pm by rustyrelx »  
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marlinguy
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Re: Rolling blocks superseding Sharps in Creedmoor?
Reply #5 - Feb 20th, 2011 at 8:44pm
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I read somewhere that the first year split of 50-50 Rem. vs. Sharps was because each company agreed to supply half the guns. Most likely because some shooters involved were either employees, or factory shooters for one of the two companies. 
As Don mentioned, it wasn't long before the ratio leaned hevily towards the Rolling Blocks. Hepburn didn't shoot the gun he designed, as I believe he had stopped shooting Creedmoor by the time he invented the Rem. #3., and not long after he left Rem. to go to work for John Marlin in late 1888.
  

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Re: Rolling blocks superseding Sharps in Creedmoor?
Reply #6 - Jan 17th, 2020 at 5:21pm
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The problem as I see it today, most owners of origonal rifles value them very high. Any scratch reduces the value on an origonal. At $10,000 plus I can see that. What would happen id the barrel or frame cracked? Too scary. But copies of origonal can be had for a lot less money. Spendy but thats what it is.
  
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Re: Rolling blocks superseding Sharps in Creedmoor?
Reply #7 - Jan 18th, 2020 at 9:57am
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Any original Long Range rifle is a valuable gun in today's market. Since the demand for those type of rifles that met all the Creedmoor rules lasted only a short period, guns built specifically to meet those rules are somewhat rare.
Rolling Block, Sharps, Ballard, are all expensive guns today in their Long Range configurations, if they're still original.
  

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Re: Rolling blocks superseding Sharps in Creedmoor?
Reply #8 - Jan 19th, 2020 at 8:39am
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In the 1876 Centennial match, 7 used Remingtons,  and one used a Sharps.  From Edward Perry's green book recorded in 1879, there were 33 shooters at the match and unattended by any other country. Here is the breakdown of the rifles used. There were 14 Borchardts, 13 Remingtons, 3 1874's, 1 Rigby, 1 Ballard, 1 Hepburn, and 1 Ferris. At that time, about half the shooters were loading the rifle from the muzzle even though most were breech loaders. The Borchardts had just come out in 1877 and evidently, became popular very quickly. The first three place shooters used Borchardts as breech loaders. Prizes total $1,117, with three rifles given away. Jackson won a Borchardt in first place, Scott won a Remington in fourth place, and Farrow won a Ballard in 6th place as he was the only one using a Ballard.
« Last Edit: Jan 19th, 2020 at 4:43pm by Old-Win »  
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marlinguy
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Re: Rolling blocks superseding Sharps in Creedmoor?
Reply #9 - Jan 19th, 2020 at 10:50am
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Interesting that "1 Hepburn" was used long before there was a Hepburn rifle? The patent for the Hepburn wasn't even issued until Oct. of 1879.
  

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Re: Rolling blocks superseding Sharps in Creedmoor?
Reply #10 - Jan 19th, 2020 at 3:38pm
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is it possible to trace the Remington shooters serial number?
   Don   rustyrelx@yahoo.com
  
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Re: Rolling blocks superseding Sharps in Creedmoor?
Reply #11 - Jan 19th, 2020 at 4:59pm
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Good catch Val, I've got to stop using the IIRC.  I was thinking I pulled that information from Edwin Perry's first Green Book from 1877 but it was his revised book of 1880 and the match was shot in September of 1879. I should have known better as the 1877 match was shot against other countries yet.  Here's a link to the book (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links) and it's really neat to see wood cuts of the rifles and scores of the shooters. If any of you like that kind of history, look at the two pages around 68-69 of the book and read the columns carefully.  It lists rifle types, grains of powder, how they were loaded and bullets used, etc. I also gave credit to Hinman for this but it was Edwin Perry.  I've been researching this a lot lately as I've started an article on my LR Borchardt and have been hoping to find a link to Albert Mitchell using it in a match. I should do a better job at writing down my sources.
« Last Edit: Jan 19th, 2020 at 5:05pm by Old-Win »  
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Re: Rolling blocks superseding Sharps in Creedmoor?
Reply #12 - Jan 19th, 2020 at 5:07pm
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Here's a guy who thinks there was an earlier prototype:
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Re: Rolling blocks superseding Sharps in Creedmoor?
Reply #13 - Jan 19th, 2020 at 6:22pm
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oneatatime wrote on Jan 19th, 2020 at 5:07pm:
Here's a guy who thinks there was an earlier prototype:
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I believe he pulled that article from the ASSRA home page and written by Richard Binger.
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Re: Rolling blocks superseding Sharps in Creedmoor?
Reply #14 - Jan 19th, 2020 at 7:15pm
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The rifle Dick Binger owns is shown on page 8-9 of Tom Rowe's book on Hepburn rifles. It is titled "Prototype" and Dick states he thinks it is the gun LL Hepburn may have shot in the Creedmoor match of 1874.
Unfortunately to date there has been no provenance to back up the thought that Hepburn shot a prototype Hepburn rifle in the Creedmoor match. And his statement that the gun he shot "was completely made by my own hands" does little to tell us what gun he made? Did he make a Rolling Block from scratch to have a special gun for the match? Did he make a prototype of the Hepburn for the match?
I hope somebody comes up with some provenance to show LL Hepburn built a prototype of his gun 5 years before the patent. But I have a feeling that if he took a brand new design to something as big as the Creedmoor matches, he'd be sure to patent it before letting the public see his new design. Any gunsmith or gunmaker who attended the match could easily steal his design if he didn't patent it before he allowed public viewing. It's more likely the prototype dates to a time closer to his patent of 1879.
  

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